Side Inject Vs Top Inject

[squigster]

Quick question and I think I know the answer but I was wandering can you make laminate baits with a side injection mold? If you use a dual injector will it work or not?  Sorry for all the questions today but looking to order a bunch of molds and I want to be able to laminate them but most are side inject. Any help would be appreciated. 

Thanks !

 

Jim 

[FATFLATTIE]

Some molds yes, some no. Swimbait molds you need top inject. Just depends on how the bait is oriented in the mold.

[squigster]

Can these be laminated?

http://anglingai.com/ds103a-6-4-tee-tail-6-cavity/

http://anglingai.com/302pb-04-4-25-rocket-bait-mold/

http://anglingai.com/308kda-03-4-0-knuckle-dragger/

http://anglingai.com/dsm12-4-drop-shot-minna-12-cavity/

 

[Baitjunkys]

yup, yup yup and yup.

 

[Baitjunkys]

Top inject is ideal on a swimbait when it is machined on its side. so you can shoot each cavity individually, I think top inject sucks for the most part on any other molds. with the right plastisol,  Ie not the stuff that heats the thinnest, you don't have issues with salt settling out flake etc settling.

[squigster]

I used to make senkos alot with only top inject using a presto pot and ball valve and it worked pretty well. Id like to laminate them which I guess I can but looking  at my options for best dual injection process. UM's Shooting Star vs dual hand injector. Not sure what is a better option. I know huge diff in price but looking at consistency and safety vs lower price. Still on the fence on them both. I see people using the dual injectors but the pots are open and not a fan of fumes even with good ventilation, I know ill still get some with the UD Shooting Start but its enclosed but been reading about the PID temp issues too so... Speed of the process is a factor too. Still reading and watching videos. Hard to pull the trigger on either at the moment. I need to make a decision and cant yet. Frustrated a bit I guess. 

 

[RTM]

The ultra molds shooting star is not a perfect system.  They recommend pre heating your plastisol in a micro past gel stage.  So the pots are just keeping a workable temp for you.  It's a slow process heating 2 pots worth of plastic in Pyrex then dumping into machine.  If you let the pots do the heating it takes over 45 minutes to reach temp.  At on mine bought last year.

[DaveMc1]

8 Cup Pyrex's and a pair of microwaves, you can have a gallon of plastic coming out of the microwaves every 15 - 20 minutes (depending on how new/worn out they are and the power of them) 98% of what I make I already have colours formulated for so I mix the colour in before heating, add flake and salt after heating and dump it in the pots to keep it hot. RTM is right, it isn't perfect, it takes short adjustment period to figure out its quarks but once you have it down you can push a lot of plastic through it (Talking about the larger 2.5 gallon pots) running the right baits I can shove 12 - 15 gallons through it a day, not bad for hand injecting. 

[RTM]

Yeah we do that with the bears pots.  I use the UM pots for white and clear laminates.  

 

I would like like to know what the next step is in injection machines is that are available?  Something that mixes moderate amount of plastic and can keep from burning it while using air to inject?  Something under $5000 maybe?

[burnerator]

What exactly do you mean by laminate. Sorry for the dumb question but I have heard different interpretations. 

Thanks

[squigster]

2 colored baits. One color on one side and a different on the other

[squigster]

2 hours ago, DaveMc1 said:

8 Cup Pyrex's and a pair of microwaves, you can have a gallon of plastic coming out of the microwaves every 15 - 20 minutes (depending on how new/worn out they are and the power of them) 98% of what I make I already have colours formulated for so I mix the colour in before heating, add flake and salt after heating and dump it in the pots to keep it hot. RTM is right, it isn't perfect, it takes short adjustment period to figure out its quarks but once you have it down you can push a lot of plastic through it (Talking about the larger 2.5 gallon pots) running the right baits I can shove 12 - 15 gallons through it a day, not bad for hand injecting. 

Hey Dave,

How much smoke do you get from the UM Pots since its enclosed? Minimal? Do the vent legs work well?  I don't want to fight something all the time by having to tweak things unless its only on the initial setup or on occasion. I am surprised it takes 45 minutes to heat up though. I use presto pots and they heat up quickly like in 10-15 minutes from liquid to pourable. It must be a different type of heating element in the UM version. Id be happy with enclosed presto pots with the same system as the UM ones with lids and temp ctrl and venting. I thought about building it but just don't have the time.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks! Jim  

[DaveMc1]

3 hours ago, RTM said:

Yeah we do that with the bears pots.  I use the UM pots for white and clear laminates.  

 

I would like like to know what the next step is in injection machines is that are available?  Something that mixes moderate amount of plastic and can keep from burning it while using air to inject?  Something under $5000 maybe?

 

Nope, you go from the pot setups straight into full production kind of stuff. 

[DaveMc1]

1 hour ago, squigster said:

Hey Dave,

How much smoke do you get from the UM Pots since its enclosed? Minimal? Once the plastic is in the pots it is not bad, less than microwaved pyrex and WAY less than open presto pots. 

Do the vent legs work well?  Not sure what you mean

I don't want to fight something all the time by having to tweak things unless its only on the initial setup or on occasion. If this is what you want then get out now while you're ahead, you will always be tweaking and adjusting things.

I am surprised it takes 45 minutes to heat up though. I use presto pots and they heat up quickly like in 10-15 minutes from liquid to pourable. It must be a different type of heating element in the UM version. What kind of volume are you doing at a time, I have NEVER had presto pots heat up a full pot of plastic that fast. 

 

Id be happy with enclosed presto pots with the same system as the UM ones with lids and temp ctrl and venting. I thought about building it but just don't have the time.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks! Jim  

 

As said, it aint a perfect setup, but it is the best we have on the market right now and it works when you figure it out. 

[squigster]

14 hours ago, DaveMc1 said:

How much smoke do you get from the UM Pots since its enclosed? Minimal? Once the plastic is in the pots it is not bad, less than microwaved pyrex and WAY less than open presto pots. 

           Ok, I am looking to minimize the smoke so its an important factor for me.

Do the vent legs work well?  Not sure what you mean

It looks like the picture shows exhaust pipes coming from the top of the pots to be ventilated. Is that not what those are?  

I don't want to fight something all the time by having to tweak things unless its only on the initial setup or on occasion. If this is what you want then get out now while you're ahead, you will always be tweaking and adjusting things.

OK, well what are you having to adjust? The Temp Controller PID loop tuning parameters?

Using the presto pots, i just put the plastic in and set the temperature and turn on the mixer and wait for it to heat up. I would expect sort of the same unless there is something like the PID's that need adjusted but if you consistently run the same amount of plastic the tuning on the PID should start ramping initially to get up to temp then oscillate and eventually level out if things are essentially at the same level. I work with industrial furnaces but I understand that this is not the same, but the lids it looks like contain the heat so I would assume it should work similarar in theory.

Please let me know what you are adjusting so at least I can get an idea of what I would be dealing with.         

I am surprised it takes 45 minutes to heat up though. I use presto pots and they heat up quickly like in 10-15 minutes from liquid to pourable. It must be a different type of heating element in the UM version. What kind of volume are you doing at a time, I have NEVER had presto pots heat up a full pot of plastic that fast.

I usually have a half gallon running and I dump it in after the pots partially heated up and just turn on the mixer.  it really don't take long at all to go from milk to clear pourable plastic.It could be off 5 minutes but not much more. Ill time it this weekend and post it maybe Sunday or Monday of what the actual time is.       

Id be happy with enclosed presto pots with the same system as the UM ones with lids and temp ctrl and venting. I thought about building it but just don't have the time.  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Thanks! Jim  

 

[ute]

I am running the Mini Shooting Star and just added the base unit with the pids built in. They are a constant +/- 2 degrees variation right out of the box, I didn't have to adjust anything. I usually run 2 lbs. of plastisol in each pot and heat in the pots. I haven't timed how long it takes to get the plastic up to temperature, but by the time I get my molds in place, my gloves found, and clamps rounded up, ( yep, I'm not real organized ) it is just about ready. I was running one of the Presto Shooting Stars and It is now in the minnow barn and is only there because I still use a Presto for open pour molds, so I have a lot of spare parts. As far as the vent tubes you saw on the web, they are no longer using these. I agree with Dave, it isn't perfect, but it is way ahead of anything else that I have used.

[DaveMc1]

I am always adjusting how the injector fits the clamp brackets that it fits in when filling, adjusting the temps as needed depending on what I am shooting etc, once I have everything adjusted for the run its good to go. 

 

I have only setup the PID's once, thats all they should really need. 

 

The biggest thing with these pots vs a presto pot is that there is far more material between the heating element and plastic to help give it a more even heat and the pots are insulated, both those aspects combine and make these pots easier on the plastic. With a little stabilizer I have no issue running white and pearl through the pots and also run a lot of translucent drop shot baits.