swimbait tail

[winedngrind]

Hello all,

hows it going? i am new to here. i had a few questions about swimbait tails. If anyone can give some insight on what i missing it would much appreciated!  in the past i designed and molded many worms and creature baits.  recently i made a swimbait from bass wood and molded it from RTV. i let the plastic cure as normal. i tested it out in my pool and my "boot style"  tail didn't swim correctly. the tail seem to just fold back? is there an angle or specific way they have to be designed?

thanks! all help is very appreciated!!

[Vodkaman]

You could modify your master to include a fillet web, say 2mm thick, by gluing in a trimmed piece of lexan or acrylic. The web will start at the tail plate and run along the under body, gradually tapering out. This will prevent the fold-back, and limit the movement to side-to-side. Depending on the size of the lure of course; could be more or less than 2mm.

The extent of the web will have to be experimented with, so it would probably be best to make it too big. You can then gradually cut back at the water's edge until you get what you want, then modify the master to suit.

Yes, this means making at least another two molds, but this is all part of the development process for a new lure. The experience gained will help you on the next project.

Dave

[winedngrind]

thanks brotha! much help there. explains a lot. ill give it try this afternoon.

[Vodkaman]

I would wait for other ideas and suggestions. Don't be in too much of a rush. Take advantage of the wealth of knowledge. Look through the gallery to see how others solved the problem.

Dave

[alsworms]

Could also just simply be a plastic issue.  Using a tougher plastic on most swimbaits will give you better action. 

[winedngrind]

ok.  ill look into it. I normally use a softer plastic. is there an additive I can mix to make my softer plastic? I normally just buy what my guy has at the tackle shop up the street.  I would ask him but dudes a lil sketchy and I'm not sure ill get the answer I'm looking for lol.

thanks again for the tips and insight!

[Landry]

Stiffer plastisol has solved issues for me. I designed a 10" Muskie paddletail bait. 

Didnt run with medium but runs great with saltwater plastisol. 

[Landry]

I also use wood filler to build up and rough shape then sand - this could create a support ridge on the bottom at tail attachment point. 

[Anglinarcher]

Plastisol makers have additives to make plastic harder/stiffer or softer.  The hardener or softener from one brand will work in another brand from my experience.

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Anglinarcher

[winedngrind]

Ok.  thanks for all the tips! the tail does fold back anymore. I had to put a lil more back bone on the belly to the tail and modify the tail a lil.  Why does the swimbait stop swiming when I retrieve rapidly. But swims good at a slow retrieve? 

[winedngrind]

Doesn't *

[winedngrind]

heres my design. at a faster speed. the tail seems to want to pull back a little bit and the boot tail doesn't kick back and forth.  but a slow retrieve does? any insight is appreciated.  i am using a softer plastic FYI. i have a medium hardener additive  on order to try. is there something I'm just not getting?  i made to different tails with different sizes and same results?

Edited July 14, 2017 by winedngrind

[Vodkaman]

Are you sure that it has stopped wagging.

As retrieval speed increases, the frequency of the waggle increases. With this increase in waggle speed, the width of the waggle does not have time to achieve the same width at lower speeds.

If you only tried low speeds and high speeds, then the lure may still be waggling, but you cannot see it.

Try at a low speed were you can definitely see the movement. Count the cranks of the reel per approximate second. Increase the speed on the next retrieve, again counting. Notice the faster and narrower waggle. Write down the numbers. Especially make a note of the numbers when the waggle appears to stop.

Back at your workshop, measure the length of line retrieved by one crank of the reel. With this information, all the numbers can be converted to metres per second.

I am guessing that around 5m/s (metres per second) the waggle appears to stop.

You can send me all the raw data and I will do the sums for you and explain to you why the lure appears to stop waggling.

Dave

[winedngrind]

fucking genius bro! never thought about that. ill let know you know. thank again and  appreicate the help! ill try and record some data.

[Vodkaman]

Keep in mind that the human eye/brain cannot see anything beyond approximately 20 cycles per second, this is why video is set at 25fps. Depending on lip width, around 4 - 5m/s this magic number is reached.

Either send me the data or read up on Strouhal formula.

Dave

[winedngrind]

do you think the softer plastic is making the tail bend back? i enforced the underbelly. after i reworked the swim bait tail it doesn't seem to fold back as much. but still does some.  not sure if i should beef up the belly to the tail more?

[winedngrind]

will do. i need to research a little more then i thought. thanks again! ill do my research and get back with the results. 

[Landry]

Your first step cause it's the simplest and will likely work - try saltwater plastisol. 

Before that my bait would not work at faster speed and barely at slower. Thought I needed to chuck the mold out. Fixed the problem. 

[winedngrind]

i know the feeling. i have been pulling my hair out for a month now with this. probably threw away like 3 molds before i found this forum.  you guys are awesome!  i talked to a guy early who shoots plastics and he said  the same. he uses saltwater plastic or some hardener for the softer plastic. that should fix my issue. i placed an order to get some but i have to wait a week for shipping. ill try to add some salt tonight for shits and giggles. will see..

[Anglinarcher]

10 hours ago, Vodkaman said:

Are you sure that it has stopped wagging.

As retrieval speed increases, the frequency of the waggle increases. With this increase in waggle speed, the width of the waggle does not have time to achieve the same width at lower speeds.

If you only tried low speeds and high speeds, then the lure may still be waggling, but you cannot see it.

Try at a low speed were you can definitely see the movement. Count the cranks of the reel per approximate second. Increase the speed on the next retrieve, again counting. Notice the faster and narrower waggle. Write down the numbers. Especially make a note of the numbers when the waggle appears to stop.

Back at your workshop, measure the length of line retrieved by one crank of the reel. With this information, all the numbers can be converted to metres per second.

I am guessing that around 5m/s (metres per second) the waggle appears to stop.

You can send me all the raw data and I will do the sums for you and explain to you why the lure appears to stop waggling.

Dave

 

9 hours ago, winedngrind said:

do you think the softer plastic is making the tail bend back? i enforced the underbelly. after i reworked the swim bait tail it doesn't seem to fold back as much. but still does some.  not sure if i should beef up the belly to the tail more?

Both are very possible, and both will be about as hard to prove, or disprove, as the other.  Take the measurements and get it to Vodkaman as soon as possible. 

You already have hardener on the way, and perhaps a stiffer plastic or more tail reinforcement will help.

I suspect that one or the other will do the job, but........... there is a 3rd possibility, one I am reluctant to bring up but it could, maybe, hopefully not, be the problem.

IF the tail stops moving at a speed slower then Vodkaman predicts based on the Strouhal formula, and IF the tail is not folding back and stiffer plastic or more tail reinforcement doesn't work, then it could actually go back to Strouhal's research.

The Strouhal experiments were based on laminar flow, or a smooth flow of fluid (air is considered a fluid at the speeds we are talking about) shedding vortices.  If the flow around the lure turns turbulent, then the vorticies become unpredictable and the loss of a smooth flow can/would allow the tail to either stop moving or stop moving predictably.  IF this is true, then the problem will be much harder to solve.  This is what happened when aircraft started to punch through the 'sound barrier'.

For now, let's assume that it is one of the two above, but keep in mind that this could turn into an issue that will be much harder to explain, much harder to solve, simply using the internet.

Good luck.

Edited July 15, 2017 by Anglinarcher

[BigBaitB]

A wider boot and tapering all around the tail section(sides and underbelly) from the body to the boot solved the kick issue for me. And making the tail section between the boot and the body wider helped with making the tail swing side to side only and not doing figure 8s

[SW Lures]

Being a layman at best with hydrodynamic vortexes around objects. You have two supports on the boot and body/tail, one on each side of the tail and boot. The nose of the baits starts the vortexes that runs down the length of the bait as the baits move through the water, which genterates more power to the vortex. I believe that these reinforcements disrupts the voxtexes as each makes contact with the boot.

I agree with BBB, that removing them and thickening the tappering body to the boot would help. If you harden the material you could be changing the material for the wrong reason. The movement relys on a limber/supple material. It's a fine line we tight rope on sometimes.

Just my, 

Keep us up to date.

Edited July 15, 2017 by DaleSW
Typo

[Vodkaman]

DaleSW - what you have mentioned is correct, but the boot still creates its own vortices. The idea is to minimize the vortices created at the front end so that you achieve pure waggle.

A few years ago, I decided to combine both sets of vortices to try and create a hunting soft plastic swimbait. The idea was to have a bulbous nose to create significant vortices, these would change the direction of the lure on retrieval. The boot would create its own vortices and waggle independent of the nose vortices.

The result did not quite achieve what I wanted, but the result is interesting. You can see the evidence of both sets of vortices. It is a strange, non-standard action, but I bet it would still catch fish. I still have the master, but I lost the mold somewhere along my house movings. I didn't have any plastisol, so this was poured with agar agar and glycerine (breaks too easily).

Dave

 

[BHLures]

If all else fails you'll probably need to redesign the tail all together. I never liked the boot tail for real like action. Seems it was only created to solve molding issues.

[mark poulson]

1 hour ago, BHLures said:

If all else fails you'll probably need to redesign the tail all together. I never liked the boot tail for real like action. Seems it was only created to solve molding issues.

 

The Keitech Fat Impact swimbait is the gold standard for boot tail swimbaits, and it catches fish.  I think the boot tail has been around for a long time, in one form or another, but Keitech finally got the body and tail shape, and the plastic consistency right.   Those rings must create the right vortices to get that tail moving, because it swims at any speed, and is stable on a fast retrieve, too.