Etex hard then soft in hot sun?

[Tony6]

How's it goin. Etex seams to cure fine on the turner. Been mixing about 6ml, x2 per batch with syringe. 70 degrees 58 humidity     Seems to cure fine can't scratch. 3 medium coats every 8 hrs. Createx Autoair paint. Sometimes only let paint dry 12 hrs. Wonder if the 4012 maybe didn't evaporate all the way and made etex soft. But it's hard till it hits the sun. Noticed it yesterday fishing. Could dent  with fingernail. Just checked leftover etex in then mixing cup and its rock hard and doesn't get soft in the sun. Something with paint ?Anybody know why that would be ? 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Tony6
Mispell

[jonister]

I always had that problem. It haunted me for months. I think my problem was improper mixing, however it sounds like you got your mixing down. Here's my theory on the sun doing that.. so picture it as a piece of rubber, you bend it, and it stays rigid while flexing. If you were to hold it in your hand for a time, or even put it to a heat gun, it would be much softer and flexible. Just as a soft plastic bait does in the sun. Likewise, if you were fishing in the winter, it would be very very hard to dent. The sun is just heating it which causes it to soften. This would be exaggerated on a bait as its a thin layer.  So that's my theory. Someone else might have a better one but I fiddled with that stuff for ages before I switched to other clearcoat. I have since found art resin to be similar yet much easier to work with, and it doesn't heat up on me so much like Etex did.  

[Anglinarcher]

10 views total before this post and 1 response.  This one is not going to be easy.

I can offer an opinion on this only.  I do not believe it is the 4012.  I do believe that what you are seeing is the nature of an epoxy or bar top coating which is what Etex is. 

I suspect that if the mixing cup is not getting soft it is because of one of two things.  First, the mixing cup would have been hotter when curing and therefore would be fully cured quicker then the 3 "medium coats".  More curing time on the lures might help some.  Second,  I suspect the mixing cup will also get soft, but  because the thickness in the cup is more then the thickness on the lure, it will take longer to get soft enough to dent with a fingernail.  Just like putting a cup of water on the stove boils faster then putting a gallon of water on the stove.

Again, this is an opinion only.  Etex is a popular lure coat, like D2T, but many of us have gone to other clears.  I still use them, and have not noticed any problems.  Still, at least this gets it bumped to the top so maybe it won't get lost in the shuffle and someone else might respond.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Anglinarcher

[Tony6]

Thanks a lot. Makes sense on the thinness my bait was sitting next to a warlock and phantom softail also on the boat in the sun. Those are both etex and didn't get soft. But looks like atleast double the clearcoat as mine. the leftover in mixing cup is 1/4 inch thick. That's gotta be it just too thin. 

[Tony6]

The bait is working awesome though caught this 1 mile from my house on the river. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Tony6

[Anglinarcher]

Hard to complain when you catch a fish like that.  Lots and lots of teeth.  LOL

[Tony6]

Yep and it cut brand new fluero leader in half in net like a razor blade. So I started that argument up again on Muskies first. I'm done with fluero now. Using seven strand or 49 strand now. 

 

[BobP]

Don't know when you topcoated the lure but epoxy actually takes up to a week to finish curing.  And it's possible that the solvents in Etex take some time to outgas if the epoxy is applied in multiple coats as you describe.

[mark poulson]

Great fish!

[Tony6]

Been recoating every 8 hrs maybe should switch to 12

[BobP]

I think "pour-on" epoxies like Etex will eventually outgas their solvent, so doubt that extending the recoat time would have any appreciable effect regarding the epoxy reaching its final cure state.  It probably just takes as long as it takes, reportedly about a week.  I don't know whether the solvent content contributes to the heat softening you described before final cure is achieved (you didn't say how soon after coating the lure you fished it).  I bet you are glad you fished the lure when you did, regardless of the cure state.  It will only get harder now if you jumped the gun by a few days, so I wouldn't worry about it.  Nice musky!

[Anglinarcher]

Epoxies actually don't need to outgas any solvent.  It is a chemical reaction that takes place once the two sides are combined and it will happen no matter what you do once they are combined.  So................. don't worry about outgassing.  Curing can be slowed some by thinning with alcohol but not stopped.  Most of what we smell is additives to control the speed of the reaction or to enhance properties, but they do not need to be outgassed before full cure.

As for curing, yes, a week is pretty normal for full cure.  Fast cure epoxies cure a lot faster for sure, but will yellow and get brittle in about a year.  The best epoxies, like the bar top pour-on epoxies, take longer to cure.  The slower the better for long term life and quality.

Back in the late 90's this was a problem with Archery, specifically putting inserts into carbon arrows.  Most of us were using 5 min. epoxy and a year later the inserts would come out.  Those using the "24" hour epoxies did not have that problem.  Several of us put a spot of the 5 minute and a spot of the 24 hour in an out of the way spot in our shops and watched it and flexed it over the course of a year.  Sure enough, even out of the light, the 5 min. would yellow and get brittle while the 24 hour stayed colorless and clear and flexible.  I lost my samples after about 3 years, but the 24 hour version was still great.

[Anglinarcher]

23 hours ago, Tony6 said:

Yep and it cut brand new fluero leader in half in net like a razor blade. So I started that argument up again on Muskies first. I'm done with fluero now. Using seven strand or 49 strand now. 

 

Ya, fluorocarbon seems to slice pretty easy.  I use 130 to 150 pound hard mono instead of wire.  I use the Larry Dahlberg Knot-Again knot to tie a loop knot for the lure that can be untied and retied.  I also double check the leader after every toothy fish to see how much damage is done.

I remember when fluoro was said to be tougher then mono, but I keep going back to the Hard mono for this.

Besides, by quoting you, we get to see the fish again.  LOL

[gliders]

Nice catch,I don't know about musky but I've proved to myself over and over that good wire will not result in less takes compared with someone using fluoro when it comes to pike , fluorocarbon and hard nylon can be bit through -good wire can't. A fish ain't  left swimming around with a mouth full of trebles with wire.....glider

[Musky Glenn]

If that lure is giving you to much of a problem, I will gladly take it off your hands. lol  A lure that works on Muskies is good regardless of what is wrong with it. Great Catch. Musky Glenn

[CooperB8s_Swimbaits]

I have had the exact same problem and came here to figure out what was wrong and saw your post. I've finally got a swimbait that I'm ready to take to a small production size to sell. The first 4 that I made out of the final mold were meant for my dad and I, 2 for him and 2 for me. We went on vacation last week to Beaver Lake to fish. I finished the baits with 3 medium coats of Etex, applied about every 10 hours or so. The final coat went on Wednesday July 26th. We fished one bait a piece that Sunday the 30th and they looked amazing, I was so proud and my dad was pumped to see my dream finally take off. We were spending the evenings putting together stuff for the new company. I didn't fish that bait again until Wednesday the 2nd. It swam like garbage. It seemed as if the epoxy was softening where the head contacted the body and was catching/sticking causing the bait to barrel roll in the water. Then Saturday the 5th my dad picked up the other bait that I made him and it swam fantastic. But gradually we could see it start to degrade and begin to catch at the joints again. Ultimately all 4 baits will not swim right anymore due to the topcoat. 

I ended up catching a monster striper on a Huddleston and took it to my taxidermist when I got home. He recommended trying an automotive clear coat on the swimbaits (that's what he uses on his mounts). I'm just not sure what to try from here. All I know is I'm not letting this die, I'll try anything to get them working again. Should I go to D2T? Automotive? A urethane? 

I added a couple of pics of the baits for reference. These were taken pre topcoat.

[Anglinarcher]

It would probably be more useful for us to see details of the top coat failure.  Love your artwork and lure design, they WILL CATCH FISH.

I use Alumilite UV for most of my lures.  It takes some setting up with UV lights but it is fast, just flexible enough, tough as nails, and handles Muskie very well.  It is not for every use, and care must be taken in some cases, but it is awesome for my uses.

Others use moisture cures.  They feel it is best, and for them it is.  If you are going to a large scale production, then this is potentially a viable option.

Etex and D2T have their supporters, and detractors. 

I use the automotive clear coat in the rattle can on occasion when I am in a hurry. 

I am not convinced that the topcoat is your problem, at least not until I get a close up photo of the lures that failed. 

Give us those photos and I bet the combined experience and knowledge on this site can work it out for you.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Anglinarcher
clarity

[CooperB8s_Swimbaits]

It was kind of hard to get photos with a phone. But you can see a bit of wear in the epoxy where the head contacts the body. At that spot it seems like it wore a low spot that the head will 'lock' into and freeze the action. Like I said. This wasn't a problem the first day of throwing the bait (probably 2 hours in the water that day). Would devcon be tougher? I've noticed in the savage gear shine glide they placed a foam strip in the head section of the joint where it makes contact with the body, would that be a viable solution? 

[BobP]

Epoxy tends to draw away from any sharp edge while curing.  It looks ok but is very thin at the edge and quickly wears away during fishing.  You can round over the edges or switch over to a different topcoat.  I haven't tried Aluminum-UV but it is a VERY quick topcoat and very tough.  I also like and use moisture cured urethane.  It's thin, water clear, and tough too.  But it has handling and storage limitations that need to be considered.

Anglinatcher:  how is the clarity on Aluminum-UV?  Any white blush from wax flakes?

[mark poulson]

When I made jointed swimbaits, I used D2T on the inside faces of the joint, and brought it out 1/4" onto the sides of the pieces.  Then I coated with E tex, two coats, turned 8 hours each.  I let the epoxy cure a couple of days, and they swam fine.

I did wind up softening the edges of the front part of each section, so there wasn't a sharp corner.  I just rounded it slightly on my oscillating belt sander.  I found that kept the joints from sticking on the cast, when the baits landed tail first. 

[Anglinarcher]

1 hour ago, BobP said:

Anglinatcher:  how is the clarity on Aluminum-UV?  Any white blush from wax flakes?

No issues, it does not use wax.  the clarity is excellent. 

My biggest issue is that I sometimes use foil or decals and if the UV gets under the foil or decals it does not cure.  UV cures must have UV light to cure and once under a cover there is no way for the UV light to get there.

Normally I now hit the suspect areas with a clear coat and then do a final total coat with the AlumiUV.

[Anglinarcher]

1 hour ago, BobP said:

Epoxy tends to draw away from any sharp edge while curing.  It looks ok but is very thin at the edge and quickly wears away during fishing.  You can round over the edges or switch over to a different topcoat.  I haven't tried Aluminum-UV but it is a VERY quick topcoat and very tough.  I also like and use moisture cured urethane.  It's thin, water clear, and tough too.  But it has handling and storage limitations that need to be considered.

 

1 hour ago, mark poulson said:

When I made jointed swimbaits, I used D2T on the inside faces of the joint, and brought it out 1/4" onto the sides of the pieces.  Then I coated with E tex, two coats, turned 8 hours each.  I let the epoxy cure a couple of days, and they swam fine.

I did wind up softening the edges of the front part of each section, so there wasn't a sharp corner.  I just rounded it slightly on my oscillating belt sander.  I found that kept the joints from sticking on the cast, when the baits landed tail first. 

Two excellent responses.  Personally I would lean toward rounding the edges a bit more and give that a try.  You can do that before painting it up and see if that works for you before you go to the effort of finding a different clear or modifying the mold.

[gliders]

Kinda what I was thinking chiefsand, could the e-tex which will pull away from the edges and thus build up slightly elsewhere, i.e the joint, be enough to alter the joint ? When the E-tex pulls away from a sharp edge it can leave a residue very similar to fish eye where it seems whats left is an almost un-cured like residue which is slightly soft and sticky. I suspect you will be better with a different topcoat. Hope you get to the bottom of it........glider 

[CooperB8s_Swimbaits]

On the next bait, I will round the edges and see if that helps. In the meantime I might try to sand a bit of the Etex down and put a coat of devcon on top just to experiment. Hopefully get all of that started tomorrow. Thanks for your input everybody!

[jonister]

From personal experience and frustration with similar hinges, try possibly tightening your screw eyes until the bait will not hinge all the way over the edge. Etex and table top resins have a very soft and sticky effect, almost like a door stopper, wedging every time the edges hit. You might find that as you fish the lure a lot, this will wear away. I don't think it roots in your topcoat however. I found this problem with Art resin as well as KBS diamond clear, both creating a wedge. I think Solarez is the only topcoat ive tried that didn't wedge on me in situations, mainly because it is so hard.