Frog problem

[froggerbass]

Hey guys. Happy Thanksgiving. I

am looking for some help on my frog. I thought the design of the feet would give me some movement on them- kind of like a huddle jack type bait. I'm getting nothing. Any input? Thank you 

[mark poulson]

I found that the Huddlestone tail works because the entire body in front of it was rigid.  That tail is not an action tail.  It is driven by the water flowing off of the rigid body in front of it.

Maybe a swivel attachment of the last segment would enhance any movement, but I think, with your bait's current joint system, some kind of a boot tail would give it more action.  Even then, it's hard to imagine what action it would have without testing.

 

[froggerbass]

So even on this the body rigidity is what makes the tail go back and forth?

[mark poulson]

51 minutes ago, froggerbass said:

So even on this the body rigidity is what makes the tail go back and forth?

That's what I found when I tried it on a swimbait, but I've never made a frog like yours (really nice job), so I don't know for sure if that's true with it, too.  I just know a tail like that has a more subtle action.   If you look at the Huddle Jack in the water,  you can see how the tail moves.    If it were my bait, the first thing I'd try, before making different pieces, is turning the tail/feet 90 degrees, so they can maybe have a side to side action.  

[froggerbass]

Thank you for the input. I've been doing glides and a few other baits for a few years now, but always have trouble with getting the movement I need out of the back joints,  whether a frog or a 4 piece fish.  Love the process though. 

[mark poulson]

Let us know how your frog progresses.

[Anglinarcher]

Sorry I am late responding, even more sorry I am responding.  UGGGGGG!

You are taking on a big challenge with that type of action to match the River2Sea S-Waver or the Huddle Jack action.  It is an action that has taken me years to understand, and predict, depending on the changes to it.  I guess, after over 10 years tinkering with the options and applying engineering principles to it, I consider myself to be somewhat of an expert on that type of action, at least for a hobbyist.  

Mark is correct when he says about the action .....

14 hours ago, mark poulson said:

It is driven by the water flowing off of the rigid body in front of it.

Vodkaman once drew a diagram of the water flow of what we can best call Hydrodynamic Flutter.  You should be able to do a search by hovering over activity at the top right of the screen, then going to search at the bottom of the drop down.

He was showing the water that causes the side to side motion of multi joint hard swim baits, but the principle is the same.  I will not steal his thunder on that, so either PM him or do the search on it.

It is not entirely true that the action is caused by the rigidity of the front of the bait, in fact, I have a soft bait I have been working on that swims the same way and the entire bait is plastisol, definitely not entirely  rigid.  But, there is a critical point at which the joints must be.

Additionally, you will see that the bait swims left to right on the Huddle Jack, or S-Waver, with the profile of the lure with the depth perpendicular to the swim, and the thickness is parallel to the swim.  I know, lots of fancy words, hard to explain, and I don't have CAD right now.

I guess what I am saying is that to make the frog you made swim, the front of the bait would need to be at a specific length range of the bait, the joint needs to stop the water from flowing through as freely, and .......................... Well, how do I put this, the bait, as shaped, as a frog is shaped, would try to swim up and down while the first joints are trying to swim left and right.  

15 hours ago, mark poulson said:

some kind of a boot tail would give it more action

Mark is probably right on this one.

I don't want you to stop trying to innovate, and the shape and work is nice, very nice, but in this case, the physics are working against you.

Additionally, I just don't think I can provide enough information, shy of writing a book on it.  LOL  Good luck, but the current plan of getting a side to side action with the joint alone will not likely work.  

[froggerbass]

Threw some paint on the frog so I can test when I get the fins in. I'll let y'all know how it goes. 

[mark poulson]

I have my fingers crossed for you!

[froggerbass]

So the back end of the frog didn’t have much action, but the legs do close and spread apart on the pause which is nice. Working on another now, and wanted some input. If I make the first section of the legs rigid- any input on If I should see more action on the feet?

[mark poulson]

It's been my experience that a one joint bait like that has much less action, like an S waver, unless the legs are flexible, and have a down turned foot, to give the leg some kick.   Like the boot tail on a soft swimbait.  

If you want more action from the legs, I would alter the foot section on the original two joint design to give the foot a boot tail shape.  That way, the foot will catch the water and be forced up, and then fall back down and begin again.  Hopefully....

 

[ravenlures]

Did you try or can you turn the feet vertical like a fish fin and see what happens might give it more action.

Wayne

[froggerbass]

I did try that with the last one. Didn’t seem to make any difference. Thought maybe if I kept the first leg joint rigid it would help the feet move, but I understand why it’s a very uphill battle. Thank you for the input. The bigger frog definitely will have an impact in the spring. I tested it in 50 degree water temps ans had several small followers. Just looking for another way to attack a niche.  Had a ton of followers on a soft frog last spring, that I felt maybe could be better approached with a slow waking or paused bait.  Maybe I’ll figure out something along the way. 

[Hughesy]

You might want to try to make your legs out of silicon or some type of rubber. Here is one I made up. Here's what it looks like in the water.

http://hughescustombaits.com/frog.MOV

[froggerbass]

That is too cool.  Thank you for sharing.  That’s the best part of reading and seeing what you guys have on here, being able to see all the hours put in to testing, research, adjustment, and finally after all that having an idea come alive. That’s definitely a possibility to the puzzle that i haven’t considered. The bigger one I made last had an action similar to yours on the leg kicks. I’m really looking for something I can reel very slow and get the good toad profile with the water disturbance to break up the profile. I thought the huddle jack action would do that, but so would a Rapala bx minnow type action, or probably some other types of movement. So there seem to be multiple possibilities.