Patent VS Production Molds

[Thebassturd]

Can anyone clear up wither or not any of the US Mold Mfg's, are making and selling production molds that have been trademarked and or have patents? Furthermore how does one identify if such molds may or may not infringe upon these patents/trademarks... It's my understanding that obtaining patents as well as trademarking such products takes and awful lot of time and money, yet numerous folks have been sent cease and desist letters. Is this in an effort to scare one from actually selling a similar product that has not in fact been patented, or do they really have a patent. Which goes back to the initial question, how does one identify wither they have a patent or not? ( Not mentioning Mold Specifics) and I'm not talking about the oversea manufactures.

[DaveMc1]

I take it your talking hand injection molds as actual production molds are generally custom made to order. 

 

Usually if one of the several mold makers is selling a mold it is their job to ensure that their products do not violate an existing patent. On a production mold it is your job to do the research and make sure you aren't violating a patent. I remember several years back Carolina Mike had Zorn make 2 large production chunk molds and shortly after he received a cease & desist letter from Zoom. After consulting 2 different patent attorneys he basically had 2 massive paper weights. 

[Anglinarcher]

But, don't discount the possibility that is is a scare tactic as well.  LOL

Patent law is a tough thing.  Most patents are easy to break, almost too easy, but defending a patent or breaking a patent is an expensive proposition.  You know what they say, in Patent Law, only the lawyers win (they get paid no matter if you win or loose).  

[Driftwood]

It' a lot cheaper to get a trademark than a patent on a product. There is also what's called a utility patent. ( not sure but I think it covers assembly.) Most companies will post the patent # on the packaging so you should be able to do a cross reference to check to make sure it's valid.

[hpssports]

It takes time & money to patent a design which is something we're in the process of doing now with our designs. It's a must now with the Ukraine mold maker producing molds of patented baits & shipping them to the U.S. I'm already seeing guys making & selling baits on Facebook of patented designs. I'm just watching & waiting for those guys to get their letters.

[smallmouthaholic]

2 hours ago, DaveMc1 said:

I take it your talking hand injection molds as actual production molds are generally custom made to order. 

 

I remember several years back Carolina Mike had Zorn make 2 large production chunk molds and shortly after he received a cease & desist letter from Zoom. After consulting 2 different patent attorneys he basically had 2 massive paper weights. 

I believe Carolina Mike is no longer in business

[DaveMc1]

59 minutes ago, smallmouthaholic said:

I believe Carolina Mike is no longer in business

 

Nope, he isn't, but that has nothing to do with him having just over $10K worth of molds made, getting a C&D letter and paying 2 separate patent attorneys that ended up telling him they're paper weights 

[smallmouthaholic]

It certainly does- shows a lack of business / patent investigation maturity before spending the $ on production molds. Ed Chambers of Zoom protects almost all of his baits .You didn't need a law degree from Harvard to investigate Chambers/Zoom patents.

You need deep,deep pockets to challenge the big boys and the $ to pay their legal fees if you loose in patent/trademark court

 

Additional content concerning Zoom Baits-

Interesting facts about Zoom:
- 102 full-time employees and 52 part-time employees at full capacity
- 45,000 packages a day can be produced when running at full capacity
- 40 worms a minute per station and there are more than 30 stations
- 8,000 gallons of plastic are used in about 10 days at Zoom.
- 100 packages per case of regular to small baits and 50 packages per case of big baits
- 303 colors on the books at this time
- 40,000 square-foot facility

Edited December 20, 2017 by smallmouthaholic
assition content

[Travis]

13 minutes ago, smallmouthaholic said:

Interesting facts about Zoom:
- 102 full-time employees and 52 part-time employees at full capacity
- 45,000 packages a day can be produced when running at full capacity
- 40 worms a minute per station and there are more than 30 stations
- 8,000 gallons of plastic are used in about 10 days at Zoom.
- 100 packages per case of regular to small baits and 50 packages per case of big baits
- 303 colors on the books at this time
- 40,000 square-foot facility

 

If only I could have a few hours to load up a cart or two.....

[SlowFISH]

There are two different types of US patents.... a design patent and a utility patent. 

  A design patent provides you rights to own a "shape/form".... for instance Coke has a patent on their bottle shape/silhouette.... anyone who sells a beverage in a bottle reasonably close to their silhouette usually has a fight on their hands.   This type of patent is the "weakest" of the patents as it's usually subjective to some degree and open to people designing things that may be close to the same shape - so can be more of a hassle to protect - conversely it also allows the patent holders to try and scare people away.... as again it's subjective in both directions.  Usually people get scared off with a well written letter - notably if it's form a large corporation with cash.

  A utility patent is usually a much "stronger" patent -  locks in a functional/physical method for doing something that's unique, novel and new.  Because of this - it's usually a little it more cut and dry regarding infringement.  It's usually harder to get a utility patent as in the process you have to prove the function of the idea is unique, novel and new - as well as different than any other patented idea - where a design patent is just about shape.  In this process you'll be required to do a patent search and provide in your application any other patents that may be "close" so your idea can be evaluated to be new/novel/different.   I believe String Kings patents are utility - basically their patent locks up the utility/functionality of placing a vertical/perpendicular rib on the outside edge of an appendage (The edge of the claws/tails/etc).  So you can sell a curly tail grub - but you can't sell one with a rib on that outside edge of the tail - as that is the utility piece Strike King has protected.

The challenge with all patents is if you don't protect it - then it's useless and once the market floods with your idea unprotected - you have no rights to stop it anylonger.  IMHO if you don't have something worth a getting a utility patent - they you probably don't have much more than something with a different shape - which can be copied by someone else with some well though out design changes.

  J.

 

[smallmouthaholic]

Patents are only as good as the money and lawyers you have to protect them.A basic trademark infringement suit can be expensive,but patent infringement suits can be prohibitively expensive- especially if you loose.If you create a new product and sell it,others can't patent it on a later date and send you a C&D. It gets real tricky and expensive when some changes are made to your patented baits and you object.

Quoting the" Paper weights" Dave Mc1 mentioned concerning the production molds Carolina Mike had made- most patents have an expiring date so you write them(the molds) off on an accelerated depreciation schedule and continue w/ your business until the patents expire,then flood the market w/ them-if they are still popularand you're in business New plastic injection designs seem to appear every couple of months.

10k worth of molds is not a big deal to someone in the business full time. That said-

Most,if not all  posting on TU are NOT getting rich in the business

 

[Travis]

13 minutes ago, smallmouthaholic said:

Patents are only as good as the money and lawyers you have to protect them.A basic trademark infringement suit can be expensive,but patent infringement suits can be prohibitively expensive- especially if you loose.If you create a new product and sell it,others can't patent it on a later date and send you a C&D. It gets real tricky and expensive when some changes are made to your patented baits and you object.

Quoting the" Paper weights" Dave Mc1 mentioned concerning the production molds Carolina Mike had made- most patents have an expiring date so you write them(the molds) off on an accelerated depreciation schedule and continue w/ your business until the patents expire,then flood the market w/ them-if they are still popularand you're in business New plastic injection designs seem to appear every couple of months.

10k worth of molds is not a big deal to someone in the business full time. That said-

Most,if not all  posting on TU are NOT getting rich in the business

 

 

I have supported patent litigation a few times over the years.    You should see the money spent on a  multi billion dollar a year product.   Just delaying  something in court for a few days equates to millions in revenue.       

 

[smallmouthaholic]

8 minutes ago, Travis said:

 

I have supported patent litigation a few times over the years.    You should see the money spent on a  multi billion dollar a year product.   Just delaying  something in court for a few days equates to millions in revenue.       

 

I would appreciate you elaborating on your statement. Millions in revenue over a few days for soft plastic baits?

[Baitjunkys]

So to clarify, there is 2 types of patents as stated, and 2 types of trademarks as well. As a manufacture I myself assume zero responsibility in patent infringement, On my stock molds nor on my production molds.  A fishing lure can have a design patent, a utility patent, and or both, as well as a design trademark. Coke bottle as exampled above is actually covered under trademark law, as well as mc ds arches and several other things.  In the end it is sole responsibility of the end user to verify they are not violating patent laws. The very easiest way to know is when your ripping off other bait parts, there will be a patent number right on the bag. research it at uspto.gov and figure out what it covers. If there is not a number on the bag, and there is indeed a patent. They cant do anything about it, But that don't necessarily mean the person you are taking from  did not do there research  either. And they to could be violating a patent.

[Baitjunkys]

Just now, Baitjunkys said:

So to clarify, there is 2 types of patents as stated, and 2 types of trademarks as well. As a manufacture I myself assume zero responsibility in patent infringement, On my stock molds nor on my production molds.  A fishing lure can have a design patent, a utility patent, and or both, as well as a design trademark. Coke bottle as exampled above is actually covered under trademark law, as well as mc ds arches and several other things.  In the end it is sole responsibility of the end user to verify they are not violating patent laws. The very easiest way to know is when your ripping off other bait parts, there will be a patent number right on the bag. research it at uspto.gov and figure out what it covers. If there is not a number on the bag, and there is indeed a patent. They cant do anything about it, But that don't necessarily mean the person you are taking from  did not do there research  either. And they to could be violating a patent.

Look at samsung vs apple, 2 days could be millions in revenue, I dont think he was referring to worms..

 

[JBuff]

We've received 2 e mails in the last year or so from people that claim we're infringing on their patent offering to let us continue to produce for a set amount of money.  The first one I noticed immediately did not include a patent # I was supposedly infringing upon.  With a little research I discovered the truth regarding such scams, bogus filings by parties not even in business.  I wrote both back and gave them 5 working days to produce the patent number neither replied.  The patent office had become laxed in how they were awarding patents and recently I read that the patent office is going to investigate awarded patents.

 

[Baitjunkys]

14 hours ago, hpssports said:

It takes time & money to patent a design which is something we're in the process of doing now with our designs. It's a must now with the Ukraine mold maker producing molds of patented baits & shipping them to the U.S. I'm already seeing guys making & selling baits on Facebook of patented designs. I'm just watching & waiting for those guys to get their letters.

Its very hard to go after some person on facebook selling baits with no business, no track of dollars, Not paying fet tax etc.  

[JBuff]

12 minutes ago, Baitjunkys said:

Its very hard to go after some person on facebook selling baits with no business, no track of dollars, Not paying fet tax etc.  

See this all the time on FB and fishing boards in the classified sections under the guise that they bought too many and are "overstocked".  

[smallmouthaholic]

26 minutes ago, Baitjunkys said:

Its very hard to go after some person on facebook selling baits with no business, no track of dollars, Not paying fet tax etc.  

If they have a website,big brother has an eye on them! Competitors will dime them out.

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by smallmouthaholic

[Travis]

41 minutes ago, Baitjunkys said:

Look at samsung vs apple, 2 days could be millions in revenue, I dont think he was referring to worms..

 

Yes, sorry should have clarified different industry.

I have looked at some of the lure patents and speculate that some are nothing more than well elaborated musings and unsubstantiated claims.   None the less , as pointed out,  few have the pockets to mess with it for the money they are making (frequently not making).   

 

[DaveMc1]

9 hours ago, smallmouthaholic said:

It certainly does- shows a lack of business / patent investigation maturity before spending the $ on production molds. Ed Chambers of Zoom protects almost all of his baits .You didn't need a law degree from Harvard to investigate Chambers/Zoom patents.

You need deep,deep pockets to challenge the big boys and the $ to pay their legal fees if you loose in patent/trademark court

 

Additional content concerning Zoom Baits-

Interesting facts about Zoom:
- 102 full-time employees and 52 part-time employees at full capacity
- 45,000 packages a day can be produced when running at full capacity
- 40 worms a minute per station and there are more than 30 stations
- 8,000 gallons of plastic are used in about 10 days at Zoom.
- 100 packages per case of regular to small baits and 50 packages per case of big baits
- 303 colors on the books at this time
- 40,000 square-foot facility

 

So you can search google, awesome. 

 

No, the way Mike ran his business had nothing to do with those molds. If you knew Mike at all you would know that he had been selling large numbers of those chunks for several years but didn't get the letter from Zoom until he ramped up production enough to compete with them. Regardless it has nothing to do with the original post.

 

The point of the post was showing that a mold maker assumes zero liability in patent infringement when making you a production mold, not question Mike's business practises. 

 

[Anglinarcher]

Your point is well taken Dave.

[Thebassturd]

Thanks for all the input, and places to start. Appreciate it folks!

[smallmouthaholic]

15 hours ago, DaveMc1 said:

 

"So you can search google, awesome."

 

Thank you for your condescending comments’. You spin your statements to possibly entertain yourself and a few followers People who constantly criticize often do this to cover up their own insecurities and make them feel better about themselves. Some people simply have to stand on someone else's shoulders to look tall since they have a low self esteem w/jealousy and enjoy putting people down to build themselves up.

 

"No, the way Mike ran his business had nothing to do with those molds. If you knew Mike at all you would know that he had been selling large numbers of those chunks for several years but didn't get the letter from Zoom until he ramped up production enough to compete with them. Regardless it has nothing to do with the original pos"

  Selling large  numbers of chunks for years that had a patent- certainly not a smart move knowing Chambers @ Zoom will protect his interests w/ a legal C&D to those who copy and sell. It sounds like you support patent infringements on a smaller scale.!

 

Have a nice Holiday season!

Quote

 

 

Edited December 21, 2017 by smallmouthaholic

[DaveMc1]

5 hours ago, smallmouthaholic said:

Thank you for your condescending comments’. You spin your statements to possibly entertain yourself and a few followers People who constantly criticize often do this to cover up their own insecurities and make them feel better about themselves. Some people simply have to stand on someone else's shoulders to look tall since they have a low self esteem w/jealousy and enjoy putting people down to build themselves up. 

 

WOW, you got me there. I think you're reading WAY to far into a typed message. It sounds to me like you're spinning others statements to cover up your own insecurities and trying to sound smarter than you are but since i really don't know you other than what you type here on TU I really can't make an informed conclusion on that. 

 

And just so you know, since you really don't know me either, I am tall enough on my own without having to stand on anyone else

 

5 hours ago, smallmouthaholic said:

 

Selling large  numbers of chunks for years that had a patent- certainly not a smart move knowing Chambers @ Zoom will protect his interests w/ a legal C&D to those who copy and sell. It sounds like you support patent infringements on a smaller scale.!

 

Have a nice Holiday season!

 

 

Again, what the hell does this have to do with the original post? Is there a reason you keep trying to put another member down like this? 

 

I think you've beat this one long enough. Unless you have something to add to the original post I'm done replying. 

 

Have yourself a nice CHRISTMAS