Help with jointed glide bait

[Ponyfoot123]

Hi guys I hope you are all doing well. 

Im working on a glide bait and I hate to ask for help but I need it and this is just the Place.

I already tested my bait and its action is pretty bad. Every now and then the bait will swim proper with a steady retrieve but most of the time the bait is stuck one side and moves sideways. It seems that during the retrieve, water catches on one side and cannot alternate to make the glidin motion that is intended. As far as I can tell, It doesnt seem like a weight issue or a joint issue but an issue with the nose of my bait or the line tie.  Perhaps the nose of my bait is too wide and needs to be more narrow?Any how here are the pictures of my lure so far. Im assuming that its the nose of the lure that prevents the lure from alturnating sides during its glide so i have narrowed and rounded out the lures head.  I hope that I can communicate my thoughts properly.  

Any ideas or thoughts would be much appreciated!

 

[AZ Fisher]

     While I'm no expert, I have made a few glides. There would be a couple areas I would look at. 

     I don't think it's the width of the face of the bait so much,  although it could be narrower, Hinkle Trout have a fairly wide, blunt face and they glide well.

     First, and I think the most important factor about glides, do the two halves of the bait sink at the same rate individually?  From the ballasting you've done I'm guessing you're going for a neutral/slow sink?  They need to sink  equally to get a good glide.  If they don't sink at the same rate , stop and make adjustments until they do.   Does the whole bait sink level and vertically in a test tank or bathtub?  You need all the hardware on the bait while ballasting to be accurate. 

    Second would be the hinge itself.  It looks like you're going to use a eyescrew/pin type hinge.   Really hard to tell from the pics,  do you  have enough room for the head of the eyescrews to pivot freely on the hinge pin.  Maybe one of the eyescrews  is  sticking or getting hung up on part of the tail section..  From the description of the swim you gave , this might be what's causing the bait sticking on one side.  Make sure your eyescrews are perfectly horizontal so the bait can swim evenly side to side.  The eyescrews need to be really tight so they can't move easily.  Not sure of the size of your bait,  big baits can hit the water with enough force to jar the joint hardware and tweak it pretty easy.  Once I've have the joint adjusted where I want, I epoxy the eyescrews in place.

    Many of the things mentioned above were learned here on TU from Mark P.   and some others.  Another tip I learned from Mark about glides is to have the bottom or belly narrower than the top or back of the bait. I believe this helps the way the bait sinks, as well as the swim.  My  8 and 10 inch glides are approx 15/16 to 3/4 inch wide at the top and taper down to 5/8 on the side and down to 1/2  to 3/8 at the belly.

   Don't see where you have the line tie or see a tail, these are determining factors as well.  One tip I would give is  video your swim tests if you can.   Being in AZ ,  I can't throw a rock and not hit a pool for testing,  but I still like to have it on the computer for reference.  I do above and below water test swim vids.   That way you can always have a visual record of what the bait is doing and not have to rely on memory if you're not near a place to test.  You can add stats or notes to the caption for reference. 

   Keep trying, take impeccable notes,  glides can be a head scratcher for sure.  That would be my .02,    hope it helps...

  

Edited August 9, 2018 by AZ Fisher

[Ponyfoot123]

4 hours ago, AZ Fisher said:

     While I'm no expert, I have made a few glides. There would be a couple areas I would look at. 

     I don't think it's the width of the face of the bait so much,  although it could be narrower, Hinkle Trout have a fairly wide, blunt face and they glide well.

     First, and I think the most important factor about glides, do the two halves of the bait sink at the same rate individually?  From the ballasting you've done I'm guessing you're going for a neutral/slow sink?  They need to sink  equally to get a good glide.  If they don't sink at the same rate , stop and make adjustments until they do.   Does the whole bait sink level and vertically in a test tank or bathtub?  You need all the hardware on the bait while ballasting to be accurate. 

    Second would be the hinge itself.  It looks like you're going to use a eyescrew/pin type hinge.   Really hard to tell from the pics,  do you  have enough room for the head of the eyescrews to pivot freely on the hinge pin.  Maybe one of the eyescrews  is  sticking or getting hung up on part of the tail section..  From the description of the swim you gave , this might be what's causing the bait sticking on one side.  Make sure your eyescrews are perfectly horizontal so the bait can swim evenly side to side.  The eyescrews need to be really tight so they can't move easily.  Not sure of the size of your bait,  big baits can hit the water with enough force to jar the joint hardware and tweak it pretty easy.  Once I've have the joint adjusted where I want, I epoxy the eyescrews in place.

    Many of the things mentioned above were learned here on TU from Mark P.   and some others.  Another tip I learned from Mark about glides is to have the bottom or belly narrower than the top or back of the bait. I believe this helps the way the bait sinks, as well as the swim.  My  8 and 10 inch glides are approx 15/16 to 3/4 inch wide at the top and taper down to 5/8 on the side and down to 1/2  to 3/8 at the belly.

   Don't see where you have the line tie or see a tail, these are determining factors as well.  One tip I would give is  video your swim tests if you can.   Being in AZ ,  I can't throw a rock and not hit a pool for testing,  but I still like to have it on the computer for reference.  I do above and below water test swim vids.   That way you can always have a visual record of what the bait is doing and not have to rely on memory if you're not near a place to test.  You can add stats or notes to the caption for reference. 

   Keep trying, take impeccable notes,  glides can be a head scratcher for sure.  That would be my .02,    hope it helps...

  

I really appreciate your help! I took your advice and removed multiple weights and now the lure falls balanced and that seems to make the most difference.  i also took some video but it wont let me upload it here. Can i email it to you? The goal of this build was to make a glide bait that i could fish deep and slow. It seems that with this particular bait that the only way it swims proper is by having a slower sink rate. It fishes high in the water column BUT i can fish it slow, so its sorta what im looking for. All and all im sorta satisfied lol. 

The next glide bait build ill pay more attention to everything you stated and hopefully achieve my goal .

Also, is it even possible to have a glide bait that sinks fast without sacrificing action?

this whole process was pretty humbling because i havent had a bait that i struggled with making thus far.  Much respect to all of you guys who have it down to a science!!

[AZ Fisher]

   Maybe you could post the vid to a Youtube channel and then post a link so everyone here can view it as well.  If not you can email it to me.  I would suggest fishing it deep just like you've been fishing it in the upper water column, ya just gotta have the patience to get it down there. If  it sinks too fast, it won't swim as well and you'll hang-up and lose more baits.  If it swims like you want, at the depth you want, slap some paint, clear and some hooks on it and fish that thing and post some pics when you catch a good one!   If you're happy, that's all that matters.

  Yes glides can leave you humbled and perplexed all at the same time. Makes you see why RM's and Hinkle's glide so nice and command the price they do

   

[Vodkaman]

I agree with AZ Fisher's analysis, concentrate on the hinge freedom and level sinking.

The problem with wanting a higher sink rate is the extra inertia that the ballast creates. Inertia kills action. The sink rate is going to be a compromise with action.

A problem that I see for the future, is repeatability. How do you document the sink rate in order to repeat it. The solution is to measure the specific gravity (SG) of the complete lure (including hardware) because it is density that defines the sink rate.

You may find the method tedious at first, but with a little practice it will become second nature. It also means that you can ballast your lure precisely and be confident of the sink rate without ever leaving your workshop.

Here is a link to the post that outlines the method. It was written for those going for neutral density. If you measure the SG of your lure with a known sink rate or rate you are happy with, then all you have to do is build to match that number. If you decide that this is too techy, I will understand.

As for video, I would love to view. The best method is to upload to YouTube and then simply post a link in your TU post.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Vodkaman

[Ponyfoot123]

On 8/9/2018 at 8:32 PM, AZ Fisher said:

   Maybe you could post the vid to a Youtube channel and then post a link so everyone here can view it as well.  If not you can email it to me.  I would suggest fishing it deep just like you've been fishing it in the upper water column, ya just gotta have the patience to get it down there. If  it sinks too fast, it won't swim as well and you'll hang-up and lose more baits.  If it swims like you want, at the depth you want, slap some paint, clear and some hooks on it and fish that thing and post some pics when you catch a good one!   If you're happy, that's all that matters.

  Yes glides can leave you humbled and perplexed all at the same time. Makes you see why RM's and Hinkle's glide so nice and command the price they do

   

Thanks again for your help!

[Ponyfoot123]

On 8/9/2018 at 10:20 PM, Vodkaman said:

I agree with AZ Fisher's analysis, concentrate on the hinge freedom and level sinking.

The problem with wanting a higher sink rate is the extra inertia that the ballast creates. Inertia kills action. The sink rate is going to be a compromise with action.

A problem that I see for the future, is repeatability. How do you document the sink rate in order to repeat it. The solution is to measure the specific gravity (SG) of the complete lure (including hardware) because it is density that defines the sink rate.

You may find the method tedious at first, but with a little practice it will become second nature. It also means that you can ballast your lure precisely and be confident of the sink rate without ever leaving your workshop.

Here is a link to the post that outlines the method. It was written for those going for neutral density. If you measure the SG of your lure with a known sink rate or rate you are happy with, then all you have to do is build to match that number. If you decide that this is too techy, I will understand.

As for video, I would love to view. The best method is to upload to YouTube and then simply post a link in your TU post.

“The problem with wanting a higher sink rate is the extra inertia that the ballast creates. Inertia kills action. The sink rate is going to be a compromise with action” this is awesome to know!

I havent heard of this method but ill definitly give it a shot. Thank you so much for your knowledge and help!

[ravenlures]

I hope I am not on topic.

I plan on making a sub surface jointed swim bait. Question is hinge type, fiber type, screw type or pin type.  Flat maybe 6" to 8" one  or two joints.  Never made one yet but seems like a challenge. 

Any advice.

Thanks

Wayne

[ravenlures]

One more thing type of wood best.

Wayne

[Vodkaman]

Ravenlures - I like the eye-pin type as it gives more room for hardware as I make 4 section baits.

I experimented with a double pin a hinge. As well as providing even more space for the hardware, it also gave an amazing action. It is a fiddly affair, so not a good choice for your first attempt. I hope to get back to more testing one day.

Dave

[mark poulson]

For the record, Dave "Vodkaman" is the reason I was able to make a successful glide bait.

 

[Vodkaman]

Mark - You've made me blush

Dave

[Ponyfoot123]

4 hours ago, ravenlures said:

I hope I am not on topic.

I plan on making a sub surface jointed swim bait. Question is hinge type, fiber type, screw type or pin type.  Flat maybe 6" to 8" one  or two joints.  Never made one yet but seems like a challenge. 

Any advice.

Thanks

Wayne

Any hinge system that you are comfortable with works. Im messing around with a pin hinge and it frees up tons of space for me to work with. The wood im using is poplar which is strong and doesnt take much lead to make it sink. As stated with all the other glide bait threads balance is so critical to getting the bait to swim right so take your time when weighing the bait with all of its components and you wont be dissappointed. Good luck

[AZ Fisher]

3 hours ago, mark poulson said:

For the record, Dave "Vodkaman" is the reason I was able to make a successful glide bait.

 

Thanks Dave, Mark, Steve, Squirrell3495 and the many others who have  selflessly shared with us all of this info.  You all are the main reason I have achieved much quicker learning curve in the area of glides. I can't always seem to remember who posted what tip or lesson, I just recall reading them here.  Thanks again,   Will

 

7 hours ago, ravenlures said:

One more thing type of wood best.

Wayne

I have made baits out of Poplar, Western Red Cedar and Alder with equal success.

[Vodkaman]

10 hours ago, AZ Fisher said:

Thanks Dave, Mark, Steve, Squirrell3495 and the many others who have  selflessly shared with us all of this info.

This, in my mind, is the whole point of TU; the sharing of knowledge, either painfully acquired with experience or simply read over the years.

Dave

[ravenlures]

Thanks guys as always your help is appreciated. Now to the drawing board.

 

Wayne

[blackjack]

I have been working on a jointed bait as well. There are a bunch of solutions that I modeled up.  I am going to make some of both styles and the bait with the better action will get the nod! PonyFoot123, if you look at the picture of the top profiles you can see that the angles are different on each side of the cut. This strategy will give your tail section a make a much wider swing in the movement in the tail of the bait

[mark poulson]

I learned that a really free moving hinge joint was one of the keys for my glide bait success.  For me, a double screw eye and SST wire hinge pin gave me the most freedom of movement in my V shaped joints.  Plus, it allowed me to adjust both the joint gap and the alignment of the sections so I got the S action I wanted, and a symmetrical water flow over the bait.

[Ponyfoot123]

On 8/15/2018 at 6:03 PM, blackjack said:

I have been working on a jointed bait as well. There are a bunch of solutions that I modeled up.  I am going to make some of both styles and the bait with the better action will get the nod! PonyFoot123, if you look at the picture of the top profiles you can see that the angles are different on each side of the cut. This strategy will give your tail section a make a much wider swing in the movement in the tail of the bait

The model on the right, because the joints are cut at different angles what tool do you use to get precise cuts? I cut my joints by hand and they are never perfect.  When you accomplish these models please provide a video of the action because im super curious!

[Ponyfoot123]

On 8/15/2018 at 9:20 PM, mark poulson said:

I learned that a really free moving hinge joint was one of the keys for my glide bait success.  For me, a double screw eye and SST wire hinge pin gave me the most freedom of movement in my V shaped joints.  Plus, it allowed me to adjust both the joint gap and the alignment of the sections so I got the S action I wanted, and a symmetrical water flow over the bait.

Two screw eyes was my go to joint but since i recently did the wire hinge and pin method i think its my favorite. What do you use for pins? I used some sturdy nails that looked rust resistant . I need to find a better substitute 

[Vodkaman]

I plan on trying plastic pins next; it is cheap, readily available and with a specific gravity of around 1.2 it is very light compared to brass or steel. Yes, I can hear you all groan.

There are two issues of failure; strength and wear. As far as strength goes, less than 0.25" is exposed to the forces and so I am fully confident.

Wear is a valid concern. This depends on the expected life (in use). Still, I don't anticipate a problem.

Dave

[mark poulson]

I use sst wire, either .051 cutoffs from my whopper plopper shafts,  or spinnerbait wire, that I get from LPO.

http://www.lurepartsonline.com/Online-Store/Wire-Shafts/Looped-End-Wire-Shafts.html

[blackjack]

14 hours ago, Vodkaman said:

I plan on trying plastic pins next; it is cheap, readily available and with a specific gravity of around 1.2 it is very light compared to brass or steel. Yes, I can hear you all groan.

There are two issues of failure; strength and wear. As far as strength goes, less than 0.25" is exposed to the forces and so I am fully confident.

Wear is a valid concern. This depends on the expected life (in use). Still, I don't anticipate a problem.

Dave

I think the plastic idea is an excellent one . I will be experimenting with solid garolite rod in 1/8" and 3/16" and will post my progress this coming week!