Skeeter Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Ok. According to the site here, Takahiro used a Tim Hughes/Jeff Thompson (H&T) crankbait to help him win the Classic. However, the bait being talked about in all of the magazine articles and websites is a Bagley BBII. Do you think that Takahiro has an obligation to say the correct bait that he used? What is your opinion and why? Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIGMAKER Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Give credit where it is due. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsworms Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Very strongly agree. Give credit where credit is due. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen much with major tournaments now. I think we'd be surprised to find out what some of those pros really use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siebler_custom_baits Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Yea i know guys use stick baits by other guys and they call them senkos hoping to get credit and maybe sponsorship from the larger companies like yamamoto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WidowMaker Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I dont know about crankbaits or soft plastics. But you would be surprised at the number of semi-pro/pro fishermen who use jigs and spinner baits produced by the "little man". They were using them before they went big time in return they worked well enough to help them go big time. So why stop using them. Ive had a few guys tell me that when they are out on the road that their wives are busy at home pouring and painting jig heads and assembling spinner baits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cullin8s Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 It all depends on what he has in his contract with bagley, if they are a cash paying sponsor then he would take care of them before taking care of someone who is not. I'm not saying its right, just saying thats how the game works, they have to make a living and that means taking care of those who take care of them. I have looked on Tim's site and can't find any mention of sponsoring Tak, that would lead me to believe even more that he would not get credit (not to be confused with not deserving credit) Maybe this is something we painters/luremakers need to think about when writing the agreements for sponsorship, to make sure the obligation exists to give you credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckarren Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Callin8s is right, but Tim Hughes/Jeff Thompson is also trying to make money off selling their baits not Bagley?s. -Corey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n2bassfishn Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Takahiro is sponsored by Lucky Craft, in articles I have read about the Classic they mentioned the fact that he was using the Bagley even though he isn't sponsored by them. Lucky Craft responded and said it doesn't mind their pros using other baits in order to win. As they see it, use what is necessary. I fished a Tour event last year and I was surprised to find the pros I fished with caught their fish on one thing but then when they reached the stage, the said a totally different bait, one made by their sponsors. I talked to one of them about that and he said some sponsors are very strict about another company's baits. He even said some even show up at tournaments and go through tackle boxes as sort of a surprise inspection and depending on the pros contract with the company, violators are disciplined accordingly. This sounds a little extreme to me, I wish more corporations were like Lucky Craft, do what needs to be done to get the win, but the competition out there for sponsorships is tough and I guess some pros will do what they have to, to pay the bills Now if Tak was using a custom bait instead of a Bagley, maybe he didn't mention it to keep it as a secret weapon for the next tourney. But I'm sure if he did us it; H&T would like him to own up to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 I am willing to accept gray areas in many aspects of life: one who does not is obviously not dealing very well with reality. However, Bass tournament fishing's most basic tenet since day one has been honesty :!:, and IMHO truth and honesty should not be compromised at any level of tournament fishing, much less at the top. How does this reflect on the sport, what kind of message does this send? To BS is one thing. This is lying for financial gain. It has no place in tournament fishing, if the integrity of the sport is to be maintained! Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richoc Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 The Pro's I deal with like to keep my stuff secret. They want the advantage in there boat not every ones boat. Doesn't make me any extra $ though. If they helped come up with a bait, I tell them I will keep it under the radar for one year. Some of them resell the stuff to the other guys they work with but never let them know where it comes from in the first place. It is a hard call on how to look at it. They talk you sell , you get swamped. That is what has happen to me in the past. Also depends if this is how you are trying to make your living or just as a hobby. A RCL event was won on my stuff this year and the angler dosn't even know my name. But has hundred's of dollars of my jigs in his boxes now. All went through another Pro that I work with. Now they do not work together. I have wondered if I should contact him or not. Could use the sales, but my word to the first guy stops me from doing that. It is a hard call because they are sharing with the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Only my opinion!! It is always about money, period! Winning the "Classic" means big money, endorsments, shows, ect....... Every Pro who has won the classic has said that the following year is long and does not leave much time to concentrate on fishing. Maybe he isn't sponsered by Bagley but could that door be opened? Probably, but not if he said he caught the fish on a custom bait. I could only ASSUME that Bagley has deeper pockets than Tim and Jeff and if you are fishing for a living, you are going to go where the money is. Is he obligated, I don't think so, but if he had any NADS at all he would pick up the phone or take the time to visit Tim and Jeff and say thanks and explain why he said he caught them on a Bagley. To Tim and Jeff-- I tip my hat to you both. No, you are not going to get any recognition and no, people won't be knocking the door down to buy a classic winning bait. That truely is a shame but I guess that is the way life goes. Deep down, you both know what bait caught the fish and that should fill your heart with pride. Obviously, you make a "GREAT" crankbait. You have given myself a goal to shoot for and you have proven it is attainable. It is ALWAYS about the money!!!! Tally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted October 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 AHHH! Finally some fire on this site. You guys were really falling asleep on me. I believe cullin8s and Tally, as well as the rest of you, all have some good points. Fishing competition for a living (especially at that level) is a dog eat dog deal. Sure there are clicks of fishermen that share with each other, but when you get down to it, only those that win or place high go to the bank with a smile. If Tak paid out right for the bait, then in my opinion, he owes nobody nothing. However, I do not agree in saying the bait is something that it is not. To be honest I never thought of the idea of saying it was a Bagley in order to obtain sponsorship. (Interesting thought) If Tak wants to keep the bait a secret then he should just shut up about the brand. But as Tally says... its all about the money. I can understand that. Most fishermen want Mo Money. I have always said that if your lively hood depended on catching fish, you would keep some secrets too. I know that I would. I would love to see H&T get credit for their work. It is only right. Those darn baits have won more money than any other crankbait that I know of. H&T have it right. We are taught as children that if you work hard and do right then success will come. Tim and Jeff work hard to produce those baits. I know because I build them too. I just hurts me inside when someone works so hard at their trade and does not get the credit they deserve. But for those of you that have read enough of my posts know that I have always said, "don't believe everything that you read". I just hope the sport does not become a real mess. But it always seems that the more money that is pumped into something the more of a mess it becomes. Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Skeeter- You want fire on the site? You think I am asleep? Man I have been busy trying to figure out un-answered questions. You know the questions and my e-mail is waiting for your reply. Bow-Wow............. you know I like a challenge and I will eventually figure this out. Tally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted October 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Your beard will hit your knees first. Bow-Wow.............. Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redg8r Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 funny you 2 One reason I have deep respect for Tim is he's very humble. The only real tout he displays on his site is an average dollar amount his baits has won in tourneys, (over 2 million) he dont promote anglers & brag about who's fishing his baits & his buyers appreciate that. they know he'll keep it in confidence. Besides Tim & Jeff stay so busy keeping up with the business they have now, whats the use in more promotion, Id worry that they would get too busy & see product quality lack, not likely, but many here have been confronted with that scenario & Skeeter, I figure youve pondered that & obviously chosen quality over quantity. Thats why you havnt seen tim respond to here yet, he's probably stuck to a brush & drying wheel right now I see both points, Id love to hear one of my baits win some money, but sometimes discretion is what the tourney angler is looking for in his arsenal of secret baits. I'm sure tim will chime in once the clearcoat cures. take care fellas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted October 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Good points Red. I am sure that H&T have more work than they care for. Quality and tallent is what makes great crankbaits. One of the folks that taught me some of the finer points of crankbait making told me that "you cannot get rich making great crankbaits." You can either make great crankbaits or you can make allot of money..... but you can't do both if you make them by hand. They are just too labor intensive. Greed has killed allot of great crankbait makers. I don't think that we will have to worry about H&T falling into that category. And you are right.... I won't ever fall into it either. I hope that H&T get all of the business that they want. I love to see good things happen to good people. Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Amen to that Skeeter. :!: And I have no problem with a winning angler's discretion. If he'd called it "one of my favorite lures" and declined to attach the manufacturer's name, that is fine and dandy, that's his choice. But don't announce to the world that it is a Bagley lure when it isn't, just fot the chance of getting your palm greased. It is a black eye to our sport of fishing in general, and not just tournament fishing. All fisherman are not liars. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeeter Posted October 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 I both agree and disagree with you Dean. On one hand Tak came over here to a strange country, busted his chops, and won the Classic. He didn't speak the language and still came over to compete against the worlds best. He had no other job than to fish. Honestly, I would talk some smack to get endorsements. Even if I was not in his position, money pays the bills. Most of the guys that fish the circuits full time are only bringing in around 25 to 40 grand a year. I truely believe it is like Tally said, "It is all about the money." It is that way for most of us in our jobs too. Even though I don't like it, I do not fault Tak. I fault the tournament system on both the FLW and BASS trails. This is partially why Tim is not getting his recognition. On the FLW trail, contestants cannot wear the patch or advertise anything that is not a sponsor of the FLW on the final days of a tournament. We learn about the other things that were used from independent sites. But really not on the official tour sites. BASS is more forgiving on this but it is just a matter of time. H&T does not pay FLW a wad of money to sponsor the trail. Therefore their name and product does not get mentioned on T.V. at the weighin. I agree that the sport is starting to get some mud on its face from the induction of big money comming into the tournaments. But that has happened with every sport that big money touches. Tell me there have not been any money and/or sponsorship scandals in football, basketball, or hockey. Jeff Coble, a fisherman from N.C. won the last Redman All American and then won the BFL All American the next year back to back. He voiced his opinions about the direction the sport was headed. It falls along the lines that we are expressing here. His thought is that there should be a governing committee that controls the sport. It should be the final word over all tournament trails regardless of status. (i.e. professional or amatuer). Jeff voiced his opinion on the regulations of wearing sponsor patches in the finals of the last Redman. He wanted to wear a Duke hat and Operation Bass said no. He wore it anyway. Operation Bass gave him an admonishment. Even though he got into the next BFL All American and won it, he has since been banned from fishing any more FLW tournaments because he didn't shut up and continued to voice his opinion. And lets not forget the run in that Rick Clunn also had over the same thing with Irwin Jacobs. What do you guys think? Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funny farm Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 I make some large swin bait for a couple on the pro circut , not sure which one , but I talked to him alot about the pro fisher thing . He was telling me some of the issues and stuff with sponsers and it is quite complex , as discused here lure endorsment . Also he was saying it comes all the way to where each sponsers decal/sticker is on your boat . If i was rich , which I will be when my daughter marries into the Goodwin fortune , estate or empire even , I would like to sponcer a huge pro tourny and before launch take away all the baitcasters and spinning reels and give them bamboo cane poles with some worms and a fly rod . and sit back on the dock and listen to all the bull whip cracks coming off the lake . hehe . sorry my brain kinda wonders which makes people wonder . But this guy was telling me all the pressure and stuff that goes on down to pulling up for wieght in and cutting all the lures off your line so no one sees what you were really throwing , makes sense after reading all this . He had me make him a few 10 inch , umm male thingy lures that he would tie on his line and leave laying on his rod and reel on the deck of his boat and see who peeps to have a look . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 As long as there is money on the table, you can bet the ranch there is some palms getting greased under the table. The rich keep getting richer, period!!!! The only way to get ahead of the rich is by pure luck, and even then they have the deeper pockets. This thread is a perfect example, H&T was lucky enough (if I can use that phrase) to have a guy use their bait and won the grand-daddy of tournaments, but had their pockets been deep enough to offer him a deal (endorsement) I am sure you would have heard the fish were caught on a H&T crank. Time will tell if Tak said that to lure Bagley. Out of respect to Tim and Jeff, I am purely speculating and voicing my opinion. If I am way off base, please accept my apology........ Tally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Skeeter, I agree enthusiastically with the need for a sanctioning body for all tournaments that pay back, say, a certain minimum amount of money. I know there'd be some growing pains, but the sooner this is done, the sooner the sport can grow to the next level. There's too much pressure, too much temptation born by the individual bone tired living-off-his-credit-cards professional that should not be there, but is, for lack of structure in the sport. Tak should have never had the option to lie, without serious consequences, and I'm sure wouldn't have, had not so much temptation been built into the current system. It is too big a business to be so unstructured. Can you imagine a golfer lying to the public about the ball he used to win a major, while those in-the-know wink at one another. It won't happen in the PGA. I got goose bumps watching Tak in the final moments of the Classic, was pulling for him all the way, and he was clearly "in the zone", which doesn't happen without lots of dedication and time on the water. I was proud for him. You can't help but root for the guy. Some years back, I had an opportunity to guide for stripers on Lake Cumberland. Well it wasn't The Tour, but I was able to fish for a living. I sold the Ranger, and bought a single console deep Vee aluminum, and much other equipment. Unfortunately that particular fishery went into a tailspin about that time and for my purposes crashed three years later. It was interesting to see the reactions of guides all over the lake as this took place. Many long-time guides simply retired or quit. Some dug in their heels, worked their butts off, and burnt lots of (profit) gasoline. Others continued to promote the fishery and their businesses with grandiose lies, and taking coolers full of big stripers to boat shows and promotions to foist upon an unwitting public. An experienced Lake Cumberland striper fisherman could glance at these fish and know with complete certainty they did not come from the lake. I thought these people were crooks, and if I had to grow my business this way, then to heck with it. I left behind some good clients who were sorry to see me go. And I would take nothing for that experience, as difficult as it was. So I do understand the difficulties of fishing for a living. I just couldn't sacrifice my integrity for it, dream job or not, Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LedHed Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Totally agree with Dean, a lie is a lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tally Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 When it comes to the all mighty dollar you can have all the rules and regulations you want but someone will find the loop-hole or some way to beat the system. I don't know much about golf but don't be surprised when you hear this same thing happen to the PGA. If there is a way it will be done, just look back a few years when the Dallas Cowboys, Deon Sanders and Nike hooked up. The NFL had to set a new set of rules which someone will find a way to beat the system. Tally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coley Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 OK, here is my 2 cents on the subject. First of all, Skeeter starts his post off with, "according to the site here" Is there any confirmation from Tim that his bait was used to help win the tourney. I don't know, right now its hearsay, and that's not good. But, if it is fact, I'll just say, right or wrong, money talks. And to answer the question Skeet asked, Do you think that Takahiro has an obligation to say the correct bait that he used? What is your opinion and why? Yes, just plain simple honesty. In the South we have a saying, " A man that will lie, will steal". Coley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylures Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Do some fishermen actually lie??? Now I'm shocked. Maybe fishing tournaments are getting like politics which is all lies. Money talks and did you ever see a poor politician? I think if credit is due that it should be given, no ifs ands or buts about it. Ken Schmitz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
