best way to replicate

[CoreyH]

Right now, having just started making some crankbaits, I'm just having fun with building them.  I've used the same template for three of the four crankbaits I've made, yet all 3 baits look quite different from each other.  One is thinner with flatter sides, one is kind of thick throughout, and one has a fairly nice rounded body.  Between cutting, chiseling, and sanding (I don't have a carving knife yet), each bait has not formed the same for me (I've using PVC, so I"m not fighting grain or anything).  And right now I'm ok with that.  However, when I eventually make a bait that I want to replicate, what's some tips or requirements in order to get it as close as possible each time I make the bait?  I have only been marking a centerline around the bait, which I know is one mistake I'm making, but I just don't know how to properly draw the other lines for creating the particular shaping I want to have.  As always, any suggestions/help is appreciated.

[ravenlures]

Make a mold and pour resin, when I pour mine I am within 1 gram + or -.

Wayne

[Hillbilly voodoo]

I can’t duplicate my designs by carving so I also mold my lures and pour them out of resin/micro balloons

[CoreyH]

Sorry, but now you're forcing me to show my ignorance.  What type of resin are you making the bait from?  What are you making the mold from?  And what are micro balloons?

[Hillbilly voodoo]

not a dumb question if you don’t know about this method you don’t know 

Both Alumilite and Smooth on make casting resin, silicone for mold making, and micro balloons for buoyancy. If you google lure making with these products you find videos that will make everything clear.

Personally I use Alumilite white and micro balloons and make my molds with smooth on mold max 30

I still make my originals out of wood and only mold designs I really like

 

[CoreyH]

I appreciate the info.  Just did some very quick looking and reading and had a few more questions.  After the mold is completed, do you attach line eye, hook hangers, lip, and ballast weight the same as you would with a wood/PVC bait...drilling/sawing into the bait and gluing or epoxying in the hangers, lip, and weight?  Also, do you need to have a vacuum chamber for both the mold and resin?  Lastly, what is the hardness of the resin?  Is it like basswood?  Harder, softer?  Just thinking in terms of durability as well as buoyancy.

[CoreyH]

Oh, one more question I forgot to ask.  In order for me to really want to make replicas of a bait I made, I would obviously want to first create the bait completely and water test it to make sure it swims just the way I want it to.  But by that point the bait would already have all the hardware and lip attached as well as possibly be painted and top-coated.  Other than the obvious parts of taking off the split rings and hooks, what else would you have to do to the crankbait in order to get it ready for the mold?  I'm assuming you would need to clip or cut off the hook hangers and line tie?  What about the lip?  Would you need to sand down the top coat?  Sorry for all the questions, but this has me very intrigued.

[Vodkaman]

The problem with the molding solution is that the density of the cast material will likely be a lot denser than your prototype, so you cannot expect the lure to swim the same. I learned this from personal experience. The likelihood is that the wiggle action will be reduced.

You may well be happy with the new action. Worth a try at least, for the experience.

You could mold the eyes and ballast in the mold, but keep in mind that you will have to figure out the new ballast weight which will be less than your original.

Personally, I simply molded the body, drilled holes and cut the lip slot after completion.

If you want to stick with carving, you could make some templates to follow. You will become more skilled, it is just practice.

Dave

Edited February 7, 2020 by Vodkaman

[ravenlures]

Coryh go to alumilite and check out there videos or check out you tube plenty there.

Wayne

[Hillbilly voodoo]

Dave is correct the action will change but I have learned to counter this by making slight adjustments to the resin lure. Increase the size of the lip slightly, moving the tie point, and weight adjustments/buoyancy I can get fairly close to my cedar originals. This can take me a few pours to figure out. That said I have a design that I cannot convert to a resin poured at all(foam would probably work). After some practice I now design my lures in a way they convert easily. So the system is not perfect for duplicating wooden lures but with practice you can get close 

 

I would take Wayne’s suggestion of checking out the videos available. It will clear up a lot about resin poured baits

[CoreyH]

I appreciate the comments. I’ll check out some videos. I have a topwater bait idea that I think would be cool to replicate in this way. Its action shouldn’t be compromised by the difference in density of the resin, but it might need some fine tuning with the ballast weights. But, considering I haven’t even made the topwater bait yet, I have a while to figure this out. 

[mark poulson]

19 minutes ago, CoreyH said:

I appreciate the comments. I’ll check out some videos. I have a topwater bait idea that I think would be cool to replicate in this way. Its action shouldn’t be compromised by the difference in density of the resin, but it might need some fine tuning with the ballast weights. But, considering I haven’t even made the topwater bait yet, I have a while to figure this out. 

I began building my own lures by copying a successful commercial bait that I liked,  but building mine out of PVC.  There were challenges in using different material, but I learned the basic relationships between lip angle and size, line tie location, and how a bait floats at rest in relation to its intended swimming depth (angle of attack).  I would suggest you not be afraid to try that, too.  

[Hillbilly voodoo]

29 minutes ago, CoreyH said:

I appreciate the comments. I’ll check out some videos. I have a topwater bait idea that I think would be cool to replicate in this way. Its action shouldn’t be compromised by the difference in density of the resin, but it might need some fine tuning with the ballast weights. But, considering I haven’t even made the topwater bait yet, I have a while to figure this out. 

It will likely be effected by buoyancy and weight differences but to what level depends on the design and kind of wood you start with. If it is impacted too much there is the option of using foam instead of resin. Same companies make products for this purpose 

You will find even different woods make a difference. 
 

It takes some practice to figure out the resin pouring. Myself I use pure resin as a ballast but I design my lures in a way I can easily do so. My molds are also made in a way that my pure resin ballast settles correctly. The other thing I do is develop micro balloon/resin recipes for each design to achieve the results I want 

You can actually do a lot just working with resin and micro balloons. You can control a lot by changing the % of resin to micro balloons mix. 
 

In the last 6 months I have changed my thoughts on resin pouring and I don’t look at it as just trying to duplicate a lure I carved from wood but more a style of lure building. 

[Hillbilly voodoo]

A little something I am starting to play with is actually pour different layers/sections of the bait with different ratios of resin/micro balloons 

 

[Travis]

Hmmm.... well we could also work at learning to replicating our process in wood.        Corey it really boils down to what you are looking for in making baits and what type of lure maker you want to be.

It isn't too difficult to reproduce a bait.  Yes there will be some minor differences but with a little experience you will be able to kick them out fairly quick with many being hard pressed to find differences.   One just needs to work on processes that help  achieve the goal.  The learning curve is different and honestly some will never be able to do it but that shouldn't stop you from trying. 

First and foremost stock preparation is important.  I always want squared stock with parallel faces. Simply makes it easier through out the entire process.   Flat side are the easiest to start with but the same process for round baits.   The pictures included are from reproducing a discontinued bait but the process the same for the most part for making a bait consistently.

I keep a journal of the build.  The stock dimensions, bait length, width, etc.. are all added and notes taken throughout the build and failures.  I cut a template out of card stock, note card, etc.. initially and add line, hook hanger, weight placement, rattles, etc.. this template is temporary and will get transferred to 1/8 plywood or Masonite at some point.  A lip template also gets made.  The paper templates get stored in a little pouch taped to the notebook page.  

The template is then used to trace the bait on properly prepared stock.  Easy to drill  everything in the square but if you have flat sides can easily position in vise to drill holes properly.  Once you get things worked out jigs are easy to make so you can replicate it on a lot of baits.  I typically start with half dozen baits.  One offs aren't very useful in my opinion and a waste of ones time in regards to tool set up.  You will find that doing multiples a lot faster than a series of one offs.  

After this I sand all the baits on an orbital spindle sander (drill press with drum attachment, dremel, or hand sanding all also work just fine).  At this point you will a series of blanks to carve/shape that area all starting the same.

From here on you need to think symmetry and repetition of the same task/motion.  Starting out good idea to give yourself a reference line along the middle of the bait.   Trace top down view on the bait and  mark points to taper the nose and tail towards.  You can carve, sand, use bandsaw, etc.. to rough this out.   Jigs can help here also but not needed.  Try and do everything in a series to build muscle memory and get the hang of it, taper the right nose side, then the left, then do every blank that way, then tail, etc...  eventually you don't need to be as anal about it as you gain you eye on what needs to be done.  Sand the tapers smooth (just a few passes).  Helps starting out to mark reference lines for shaping bevel along back and belly of lure then take passes with your knife, chisel, or sand to the line.  Do the top right side first, then the top left and keep referencing your center line,  Then to the belly in the same fashion.  Then go back and do the same to smaller amount along the prior bevel and down further onto the body and closer to the center line.  Keep repeating until you get a rough shape of the body needed.  You will end up with a little facets but all sands out very quickly.  Flat sides much easier but same process for rounded baits.  Sharp edge makes short work and long draw cuts can peel off and edge in just a few passes.  Can shape a bait in minute once you get the hang of it.

It doesn't take too long and it gets a lot easier.  You can knock out a lot of blanks and make jigs to speed aspects up.  I don't worry about jigs until I get everything worked out.    Once that is done becomes easy to reference notes and knock some baits out.  Lots of other tricks but easier to focus on the basics.

Edited February 9, 2020 by Travis

[CoreyH]

Travis, thanks for the tutorial. That helped a lot. I’ve now got multiple ways to accomplish things. I think trial and error with the different methods will come next. I really appreciate the help!

[Travis]

Molding lures and casting is a viable option for sure and just another method we have available for our use.   I made a lot that way off and on over a few years.   If needing to do a complex detailed lure and replicate then about the only way to go without taking up too much time.  

I also work in multiples when casting.   I want enough molds at hand so I can mix up a batch (I use 2 part urethane foam) and fill up several molds before it starts to bloom.   For me that was typically 3 or 4 molds so I wanted triple that.   I would set up all the molds with the weighted through wire harness opened up.  Mix up the batch and could fill the first 3 or 4 and assemble the molds and then clamp.   Then do the second set, then the third set.  At that point I would demold the first set, cut the spru, and load the harness back in.  Then move to the second set of molds, then the third and start the process over.   In an hours time I could have a lot of blanks ready for float testing and adjusting (flat sides typically as round baits rarely needed adjusting).

Overall I enjoyed making them less than wooden baits so haven't made too many for some time but do have a few things wanting to try out this year and will be making a few new molds.

 

 

 

[kajay920]

Even though I am a woodcarver I don't use knives and chisels very much to make a bait. I use a sanding drum on a Dremel or rotary Carver. It's a bit safer but louder and more messy so I prefer it.

Travis has a spot on process. On thing might add is rough out lines. After the bait is squared off and center line marked, I add taper lines. 

On a 3" bait the lure is full thickness at the back of the gill and for maybe another 1/2" back. I mark the gill by tracing my thumb as I hold the front. Usually about 3/4- 1". I then mark the tail about an 1/8" left and right of the centerline. Now draw lines from the full thickness belly to the tail. Do the same method at the front but keep the mouth a little wider, so maybe 3/16" left and right of the centerline.

All of these marks are on the back and create the tapered top view.

[Hillbilly voodoo]

I have respect for you guys who replicate with wood carving. It’s just not for me but I also carve with a vague plan and just work it till I like what I see. I tried in the past and was not happy with the results but I lack documentation of the process I used to create my original. Maybe I just lack the focus I often found myself modifying the design do to chasing grain or a new idea popped in my head. I blame A.D.D 

I enjoy carving originals but replicating kills it for me
 

It’s a good thing we have options/methods  to choose from that create quality lures. Only problem is new builders can get all confused on what is the best option when really they are just different 

 

[BobP]

I only build in wood and follow the same basic process as Travis.  I often copy popular baits that I admire and doing so requires an actual specimen of the bait to be copied, NOT just a pic.  You need to measure and weigh EVERYTHING and note the bait’s cross-sectional shape, positions of hook hangers and line tie, a trace of the lip,  and a trace of the body etc, etc.  I’ve sometimes gone to the extreme of having baits X-rayed.  In the end, you have to carve faithful copies.  That’s the part that requires a little skill and experience, but you can do it if you go slow and check the original as you work.  I don’t sell bait copies, or any baits for that matter,  but copying is often the only way to get good specimens of great baits that are no longer in production.

[Travis]

 I left out a lot of the pics of the process weighting, cutting open the bait, measuring, profiles, etc...    They were basswood builds but the final ones were cedar.  I had several reference baits provided but the two in photo were the biggest differences.  Poe's during that time had some of the worst quality control.     I leaned more towards using measurements that were close to ones in my personal collection that performed well.  I do add taper lines typically until jigs are made.  I had to take look back at the photo properties... Those baits were from 2006.  I just painted over this past Christmas a few of the blanks remaining that I made that year from this work.

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