CoreyH Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 Just a couple quick KBS Diamond Clear top coat questions. First, do you only need to do one coat or multiple coats? Second, do you need to do any surface prep (wiping the bait down with rubbing alcohol or something else) before dipping and hanging? Any other tips or suggestions are appreciated as well since this stuff isn't exactly cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastman03 Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 I've never used the stuff, so I'm personally not much help. Most guys seem to say 2 coats gives you a higher gloss finish. The major issue with it is storage! Watch Jeckyll baits on youtube, she is a pro at using it and has a good tutorial about storing it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreyH Posted March 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 I've watched that video and another of her videos where she talks about storing it. In one of the videos she also dips a bait, but she only does one coat. That's why I wasn't sure if you normally just do one coat or multiple coats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcromerangler Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 @CoreyH if your top coating balsa Id highly recommend 2-3 coats. I do 3 coats. the first two about 2hrs apart, then another next day. Trying to build up that thickness to ensure proper protection and a semi-long lasting balsa bait for what's its worth. KBS is not a one bait here or there kind of top coat lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcromerangler Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 dipping method that is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreyH Posted March 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 Thanks for the info. Maybe I need to look into using something else for a top coat then since I currently am doing a bait here and a bait there as time allows. Maybe slow-cure epoxy is a better route for me at this time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcromerangler Posted March 4, 2020 Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 I would recommend Devcon 2 ton epoxy and can reduce with denatured alcohol or some xylene thinner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreyH Posted March 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2020 Thanks, I'll try that. Is there a certain ratio to go by or a certain consistency to look for when thinning the epoxy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcromerangler Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 18 hours ago, CoreyH said: Thanks, I'll try that. Is there a certain ratio to go by or a certain consistency to look for when thinning the epoxy? I would just start with little bit and mix and make sure to watch the viscosity to see how it thins...Don't want it too thin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastman03 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 Why would you thin the epoxy? Just curious. I use epoxy as a sealer before I paint, and as a finish and have never thinned it. If I want it a bit "thinner" I will warm it up a bit. I feel like adding any chemical to a carefully formulated epoxy will change or possibly ruin it's characteristics. Maybe I'm wrong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcromerangler Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 Lots of guys thin epoxy for their reasons. I use KBS. I'm trying to make as many baits as I can. not one at the time 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 3 hours ago, eastman03 said: Why would you thin the epoxy? Just curious. I use epoxy as a sealer before I paint, and as a finish and have never thinned it. If I want it a bit "thinner" I will warm it up a bit. I feel like adding any chemical to a carefully formulated epoxy will change or possibly ruin it's characteristics. Maybe I'm wrong. You can thin an epoxy slightly, without affecting its characteristics, other than it's film thickness, if you make sure to thoroughly mix the two separate parts before you add the denatured alcohol to thin it. The alcohol will bond with any unmixed components and prevent the epoxy from setting. If you add more alcohol, it will become a penetrating sealer, but it won't work as a strong top coat. I got this advice from a tech at Etex. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallyc14 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 I’m no expert but what I do with the flexcoat epoxy for baits is mix it as directed and then I spread it out on aluminum foil and use my heat Gun and heat the mix up. It’s a 2 fold thing #1 it gets out any trapped air during mixing .#2 heating it up warms it up so it flows better for me. I am like you I make one here and there . Kbs is a solid choice for a top coat but there are drawbacks one of the biggest to me is it’s moisture cured . Where I live humidity is always high(costal Virginia) My first container of kbs turned in nothing flat. Which is the reason why I went with epoxy. In my humble opinion it’s better for people like us who are doing One every now and then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreyH Posted March 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 21 minutes ago, wallyc14 said: I’m no expert but what I do with the flexcoat epoxy for baits is mix it as directed and then I spread it out on aluminum foil and use my heat Gun and heat the mix up. It’s a 2 fold thing #1 it gets out any trapped air during mixing .#2 heating it up warms it up so it flows better for me. I am like you I make one here and there . Kbs is a solid choice for a top coat but there are drawbacks one of the biggest to me is it’s moisture cured . Where I live humidity is always high(costal Virginia) My first container of kbs turned in nothing flat. Which is the reason why I went with epoxy. In my humble opinion it’s better for people like us who are doing One every now and then. Thanks for the info. I'm assuming you just brush the epoxy on after you've heated it with the heat gun? Do you use a lure turner, hang after brushing, or something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallyc14 Posted March 5, 2020 Report Share Posted March 5, 2020 Yes:-) I brush it on and put on a turner which initially was the reason I went with kbs. One less thing to have to have/make. now that I got off my lazy bones and made one;-) I haven’t look back. I won’t bash Kbs as it’s a good choice. I used it on my restored pickup truck frame and it’s awesome stuff. In my experience the epoxy holds up against hook rash and bass teeth better. One coat of epoxy vs three coats of kbs dipped. Here’s one I made last month and I’ve used it heavily last couple of weeks. Not much if any hook rash. I’m an OCD kind of person I want the finish to be perfect and stay that way as long as it can. Stupid?!? Yes!!! It’s the way I am. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreyH Posted March 6, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 That looks great! What epoxy do you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallyc14 Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 Flexcoat lure epoxy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreyH Posted March 6, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 Thanks. I’ll check that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 Guys develop their own procedures for topcoating with epoxy, including me. I’ve never had much luck applying heat to epoxy, and doing it has resulted in a few disasters for me. Heat makes epoxy cure much faster. Heat Devcon Two Ton enough and the brushing time shrinks from several minutes to less than one minute. If I want to thin Devcon to make it brush easier, expel bubbles, and extend the brushing time, I mix in a FEW drops of denatured alcohol after the epoxy is mixed. You really want a lure turner if you use epoxy. KBS moisture cured urethane is popular because you can simply dip and hang lures to drip/dry. No mixing, no brushing, no lure turner. It’s performs as well as epoxy in terms of hardness and toughness and does not Yellow like epoxy can sometimes do. Player’s choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoreyH Posted March 6, 2020 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 BobP, thanks for the extra info...you guys are making it hard for me to decide what I want to do for a top coat. I'm going back and forth between epoxy and KBS, with each having advantages. Right now I'm leaning towards getting a lure turner and using epoxy, even though it's not as simple as dipping and hanging with KBS. Storing the KBS is what worries me since I may only be dipping one or two lures every couple weeks or so. And as expensive as it is I really would rather do one coat of epoxy vs. 2-3 coats of the KBS. Decisions, decisions.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcromerangler Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 Make more baits at time (Pre top coat) and use KBS.!! I love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastman03 Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) Yea lots of options out there and it totally depends on what you are making and how many. Either way, it seems reading the lure forums every type of topcoat has its fans and detractors, and every method has it's own difficulties. As jcromerangler said, if you make lots of baits, KBS is probably the way to go, it seems like a great product. For me, making a handful of large muskie lures a year for myself, epoxy is the way to go (cheaper, availability near to me, no storage issues, great finish and strength). Getting a perfect finish with any epoxy can have its difficulties, just do your research and get good at the one you choose. There will always be a learning curve, and that might mean some bad finishes or storage issues or whatever. Just keep at it! @bobp yea I hear you about the heat, it really speeds up curing time. With a bar top epoxy like Etex, the working time to begin is so long that even heated (slightly), it still gives me at least 10-15 min to brush on, and that is after letting it "rest" after mixing for a few minutes. Also, I don't mean to get this way for off topic, but this was an interesting article I stumbled across a while back. It is an interesting read, and it was the reason I was primarily against thinning epoxy with chemicals (even though it is totally possible). Also instead of warming the epoxy, they suggest warming the wood. https://www.epoxyworks.com/index.php/thinning-west-system-epoxy/ Edited March 6, 2020 by eastman03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted March 6, 2020 Report Share Posted March 6, 2020 (edited) I personally have never used KBS, but use Dick Nite MCU, which is much more “touchy” regarding curing in storage than KBS. KBS is more forgiving but you can still take measures to preserve it, like spraying the container with Bloxygen, decanting it into mason jars and double sealing the jar with plastic wrap, or even using the “tap the can” method of storage/dispensing it. All of these methods are often used with Dick Nite. You can also add a solvent to KBS if it begins to thicken (don’t know which, but somebody here does). So yes there is concern about MCU curing in storage but many guys still choose it because of ease of use and great performance. And when I say I ease of use, I’m also thinking there are many fewer ways to screw up a MCU topcoat than an epoxy one. Having screwed up a lot of topcoats in my time, that’s a consideration, especially if you are new to this. I still use Devcon on a few specific lures and after 20 years, I’m confident using it. But for most lures, most of the time, MCU is a winner. Edited March 6, 2020 by BobP 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted March 8, 2020 Report Share Posted March 8, 2020 (edited) Eastman03, there’s an art and a specific technique to using epoxy and it differs according to the brand. Envirotex Lite, aka ETEX, is quite different from Devcon Two Ton. ETEX is a pre-thinned bar top - decoupage epoxy while Devcon is a glue. As for applying heat, that also falls into the “art” category. Warming ETEX before brushing may be ok, though I personally don’t see a need for it. Heating an epoxied lure is also ok or maybe not. If you heat a freshly epoxied lure enough it will expand the air in the wood, forcing it out into the finish. So if you want to heat the lure, do it before epoxying. Also, a lure turner running in a box gently warmed by an incandescent bulb might work fine and shorten the cure time considerably. You can also use an alcohol burner passed quickly over fresh epoxy to draw out any bubbles (breathing on the epoxy can do the same). For me, heat is another variable and the fewer variables there are, the better I like it. The best technique I know of for epoxy, or any finish, or for any crankbait build step: have some patience. Haste makes waste. Measure and mix epoxy well and it will cure hard in its on time without further help. Edited March 8, 2020 by BobP 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
