Jointed kiwifish type lure help

[Kanny]

I've been having a go at making a jointed banana/kiwifish sort of lure ,I've got it to testing stage but I'm having real problems getting it to run, I've added weight to the front of the front section that didn't work I've added weight to the  middle of the front section that didn't work. 

The back section seems all good and balanced but the front just wants to turn on its side when moved through the water. 

Any ideas anyone?

Pictures are What I'm making and what the end result should kinda look like 

Atb

Kanny 

[Hillbilly voodoo]

Hooks are part of the weighting and yours are on the small side. This will also cause hook up issues I recommend up sizing

this aside do you have a pic of it floating in the water?

odds are if you can get your copy the float in the same angle as the original that will solve the balance/weighting.

also adjust your tie point is another option 

remember you are trying to replicate a plastic lure using wood so adjustments are going to be needed to get close action wise

What action are you getting? I am assuming it’s blowing out with the front lip over powering the lure

Odds are if you balance it so it sits the same as the original it’s a matter of adjusting the tie point. If you are blowing out move it closer to the front of the lip. If you want more wiggle move it towards the body 

Hope that makes sense I am on nightshift for a few shifts so may not respond quickly if you have questions 

[DGagner]

I've found that making any weight bowed that way make issues in orientation. Think about it. If you drop a feather that is bowed it will always turn so the bow is facing down (the middle is lowest). Do the same thing with something in the water and it's the same. I've found that even some of my hard swimbaits that have an arch to them have difficulty staying upright. I need to weight them more than I'd like to keep them stable. And the more it's arched the higher the weight usually is as it's in the highest point of the arch. Lures like this look really good but I've not been making them like this any longer for that reason. It is possible but boy it's not easy. Here's an example of one that I've had issues with, and it's not arched much either. They all tend to want to ride in the water like skis. Lemmee know if you find a solution.

[Hillbilly voodoo]

@DGagner if you look at my designs they almost all have a curve to them. The real trick is carve with balance in mind and the kwik fish design does this. You can accomplish balance with curved baits with no weight if you design it right 
 

Odds are the weight goes between the 1st and 2nd hook 1/3 behind the first hook. But I need to float test to really know 

[Hillbilly voodoo]

Half asleep at work 

just noticed I forgot to consider the buoyancy of the wooden lip vs being plastic. The weight will be more forward 

nightshift messes up my train of thought. I will be smarter in 5days lol

[Kanny]

I'm at work at the moment having a think  I'll reply later 

Atb 

Kanny 

[Kanny]

One thing that has struck me  is how stable the rear section is and when you look at its construction one thing is blindingly clear,  the weight is at both ends! 

[osutodd]

Looking at the shape of the front section, the middle of the bait is the highest point, and the ends are the lowest, meaning you have buoyancy low (the ends) and weight high (the middle). My thought is to distribute your weight more to the ends, but not necessarily the same at each end. You might need more to the front and less to the back. 

It might even mean using a less dense wood, so that you can have a greater difference in density from top to bottom.

[Kanny]

Firstly thanks for everyone's input, some great points made .

I've weighted the front and the back together and there is a improvement I can now get a slow snake like meandering type of movement with a slow retrieve but any more than that and it just blows out .

As we all know a low centre of gravity creates stability and this is the problem ,getting enough weight at the lowest points, I've removed a little meat out of the hump, I'm not sure I can do anymore with this one,I'll probably give it a paint job and give it a go on the rod but what I'm seeing of it in the tub my expectations are low. 

One thing I have learned from it is air rifle slugs are great for placing small accurate packets of weight to a lure 

Atb 

Kanny 

 

P.S @Hillbilly voodoo

the picture of the original lure is just a stock image I don't have a actual kiwifish in my possession to do a comparison. 

Edited July 2, 2020 by Kanny

[Hillbilly voodoo]

This one drives me crazy because if it was in my hands it would take me less than a minute to figure it out lol

A little tip to odd shaped baits is don’t over think the body and focus on the angle of the lip/face that catches the water. That is the most important because that is what creates the action. The body angle is not that important. The weight and buoyancy of the body has more impact then it angle. The kwik fish is designed so the fat ends buoyancy will counter the less buoyant front end. Remember built with plastic the lip would sink and the air cavity in the fat end is buoyant 

hope this makes sense I am still half asleep lol

PS going by memory the kwik fish sits about 2/3 in the water lip down. When the bait is floating the hook hangers should create a relatively straight level line. I am pretty sure you’re tie point should be a little closer to the tip of the lip.

Hope some of my half asleep ramblings make sense. Its easy for me to build but trying to type out how to do it is way harder for me

[Anglinarcher]

"remember you are trying to replicate a plastic lure using wood so adjustments are going to be needed to get close action wise"

Actually, if you go back to the originals, the Lazy Ike jointed and the Helen Flatfish jointed, they were wood.  I was thinking that they sold out to plastic in the late 70's early 80's.  I spend hours searching ebay back in the early days buying the wood versions because they seemed to work better.  LOL

I have some ideas, but I would need to see your version from the side, from the top, etc.  

[Kanny]

1 hour ago, Anglinarcher said:

"remember you are trying to replicate a plastic lure using wood so adjustments are going to be needed to get close action wise"

Actually, if you go back to the originals, the Lazy Ike jointed and the Helen Flatfish jointed, they were wood.  I was thinking that they sold out to plastic in the late 70's early 80's.  I spend hours searching ebay back in the early days buying the wood versions because they seemed to work better.  LOL

I have some ideas, but I would need to see your version from the side, from the top, etc.  

Hi thanks for your reply  

I've taken it apart now and prepping it for paint but by all Means  I'd like to hear your thoughts  so here's a couple more pictures plus a original wooden lazy ike  I found on the www.

 

Atb

Kanny 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Kanny

[Hillbilly voodoo]

5 hours ago, Anglinarcher said:

"remember you are trying to replicate a plastic lure using wood so adjustments are going to be needed to get close action wise"

Actually, if you go back to the originals, the Lazy Ike jointed and the Helen Flatfish jointed, they were wood.  I was thinking that they sold out to plastic in the late 70's early 80's.  I spend hours searching ebay back in the early days buying the wood versions because they seemed to work better.  LOL

I have some ideas, but I would need to see your version from the side, from the top, etc.  

I knew the lazy Ike was wood at one point but not the flat fish. Most lures were plastic by the time I started paying attention. I am old enough to have some grey hair but not old enough to be over the hill yet 

Back in the days when I refused to build lures with added lips. I built lots of wooden banana style baits. But never copied any models. That curved body style has followed over into some of my lipped baits these days .The principles I mentioned in this thread are what I used

[Kanny]

19 minutes ago, Hillbilly voodoo said:

I knew the lazy Ike was wood at one point but not the flat fish. Most lures were plastic by the time I started paying attention. I am old enough to have some grey hair but not old enough to be over the hill yet 

Back in the days when I refused to build lures with added lips. I built lots of wooden banana style baits. But never copied any models. That curved body style has followed over into some of my lipped baits these days .The principles I mentioned in this thread are what I used

I'm beginning to think  that  "flat fish" is the key to this puzzle... comparing mine to the original ike mine clearly  has more  meat up top in the front section,  looks like a reshape is on the cards for this weekend 

Atb 

Kanny

Edited July 3, 2020 by Kanny

[Hillbilly voodoo]

36 minutes ago, Kanny said:

I'm beginning to think  that  "flat fish" is the key to this puzzle... comparing mine to the original ike mine clearly  has more  meat up top in the front section,  looks like a reshape is on the cards for this weekend 

Atb 

Kanny

Can’t type out an explanation right now getting ready for work soon but it’s not the body. The tail doesn’t wag the dog. The only thing the banana shape does is generate lift to the back end which helps create a wider wiggle 

[Kanny]

I've thinned the front section down and removed the middle hook and its now running a lot better with a tighter wiggle, it will still blow out if you give it  some  but from what I remember they always did. 

[Kanny]

All done ,thanks for everyone's input 

Atb

Kanny 

[Anglinarcher]

Wow, I have to work a couple of days and you guys leave me in the dust.  LOL

Well done, and yes, the originals did blow out on a fast retrieve.