Question about bib and weight to get desired action

[JB.TM]

Hello people,

I can get (probably) to the desired results after some trials and errors, wasting 3D printer filament, mold silicone and PU resin so I would like to ask here how to do it properly from the beginning.

The achievement would be to have a rolling (?) action instead of wobbling . From what I've read, the bib should have a vertical position or close to that but I don't know where to put the weights so the lure won't just go straight without action or worse, turning on the side. I also may be wrong about the bib :-)

Can I get some advice, please?

Thanks in advance!JB

[RPM]

Do yourself a favor and get used to the search feature here, there are tons of comments about that subject, and most recently search "Hunting Action" this is everything you need to know and more, really great reading along with helpful insight. Sorry but it's truly the best advice I can give, it will be a treasure trove of information.  

[Hillbilly voodoo]

The how lips/bills work thread is another good one

Weighting varies depending on the body shape, material, hardware, and desired depth. Basic principle for a crankbait is weight it so it sits level or front slightly down 

as for your “rolling” action again not a cut and dry answer and not 100% on your goal. It will also very depending on it you looking for a gentle roll or sharpe fast action. Depth is another factor. 

a shallower fast action I would Be going with a square bill on a 45+ degree  angle. That is is I understand what you are looking for

I have built lots of lures and yes I can throw together a lure with respectable action no problem but to create something really good means trail and error 

I credit my ability to build lures with good action to the fact I built lots of meh lures learning over the years. Don’t expect it to come easy. There is basic principles to lure building but there is a lot that varies between each design 

 

[Vodkaman]

Reading between the lines of your post, I see some disappointment. I see no specific requirements, you just want a lure that swims using your chosen method of production using 3D printed media, and I am OK with that. Sorry for the lengthy post.

I have done some work with 3D printing, but not directly producing the lure, more designing molds. So let’s talk about 3D printing lures.

Firstly, you must consider the density of the plastic that you are working with. Regardless of the material specification, they are all roughly the same density; 1.2g/cm3, in other words, if you designed a pretty shape and printed out a solid body, it would sink like a stone, and that is before you add ballast, wires, hooks and eyes.

Your lure body will need to be hollow in order to reduce the overall density of the lure to that of a standard lure construction. Let us consider the most talked about material; balsa, it has a density range of 0.40–0.340 g/cm^3. and if you are talking to me then you will need to get used to metric numbers, because I consider the USA preference for pounds and ounces archaic and inefficient especially in the world of material density, your primary material science in lure design. An equivalent material/air density of 0.3g/cm3 would be a very good starting point for a strong but still very reactive lure.

As you are talking about 3D printing, I can assume a level of engineering and that you have a CAD software for design, let me know if this is true or not. This is not a test, the absolute truth will not hurt but is required. Most lure designers would not have such knowledge, but it does not stop them from being superb lure designers. This is not a class thing, merely a method of design.

As we are designing a hollow lure, then the lure will be printed in two halves, to be later glued together. We can design provision for the ballast weight and the wire trace for tow eye and hook management, be it a single one piece wire, or more likely separate wires, as we are dealing with a much stronger material than pure balsa.

Assuming a lipped crank-bait type lure, the next consideration is the lip. We can either design the lip into the 3D print or design a slot to mount a lip of a more suitable material such as polycarbonate, the standard material for lips, or even a thinner woven glass type material.

My point is that the lip is the part that takes the most abuse, with contact with terrain, bouncing off rocks etc. For own use and the ease of production, I would suggest a compromise, and design the lip into the lure body with the standard 3D material choice.

As suggested above, we are looking for a lure that swims between 4ft and 10ft depth. A lip angle of around 45 – 50 degrees, tow eye in the body, ballast located low around the COG, a central hook and a tail hook, the length and weight of lure to be determined.

You can pick the length of lure and a pretty shape. The hard part is the lip length and width. This will inevitably involve some trial and error, it is called research and development (R+D). You design the first prototype with the lip too long, then trim it back to attain the swim that you desire, then modify the model to suit.

It is all about overall density, lip size and tow eye position. I find this an interesting project and would like to be involved.

Dave

 

 

[ravenlures]

I think you want in one shot for your lure to work, let me tell you it just don't work that way. I would have carved out a lure close to want you want and go from there, that way you have a better understanding of how it will work before going to a 3D printer and making a mold. Trial and error will give you a better understanding in the long run of how your lure will work, I guess I am old school that's the way I just do things at 77 you just can't teach old dogs new tricks.

Wayne 

[JB.TM]

OK, there wasn't much input from me or maybe I didn't use the proper words (sorry, english is not my native language )

I've been doing quite a few hard baits which work fine, usually 3D designing it, then printing the master, sanding it if needed, pouring the mold then last step PU resin. All good so far, my crankbaits are wobbling just fine, the jointed lures are having the S movement so I think I'm doing it right But for this kind of "rolling" action I've been trying a few with no success. So I only wanted to ask for some advice about the bibs (angle, size) and weights (how many of them, position). I know it depends also on the shape and size of the lure so this is what I am trying to achieve:

After casting the PU resin for the prototype, I found (hopefully) the proper bib for it. A bit of weight where the black point is and for fast retrieval is seems to have nice rolling action. But I am not that confident because I tried it in calm water with no current.

Front view:

So...should I take care of some other aspects to make this work fine on the river?

Thanks in advance!

JB

[Anglinarcher]

OK, I think that you want action around the longitudinal axis, a roll, instead of action left and right, a wiggle.  That is how I read your post, but if I am right, what you ask is going to be a challenge for sure.  Making a lure that has some roll along with a primary wiggle action is fairly common and is done by moving the ballets slightly higher in the bait.   Making a lure that rolls one way, then back the other way, is not something I have seen before.

First, I propose that you want a near neutral balance and density.  If the bait moves through the water nose high or low, it will wiggle, not just roll.  If your bait sinks nose high or low, it will try to self correct, and it will wiggle, not just roll.

Next, making a lure that simply rolls is easy, making a lure that rolls part way, then rolls back the other way, then self corrects and rolls again to the first direction may be a real challenge.  

I will give it some thought, but at this point in time, I really need to hear back from you to see if I am understanding your goal.

[Hillbilly voodoo]

If you can post a video of a lure with the rolling action you are looking for it would be helpful. 

if it’s what I am thinking I have a few sitting in my lure room I built that do exactly what you are looking for. It has very little wiggle but tips heavy side to side. 
 

 

[Big Epp]

Pics Hillbilly?

I don't do any 3D design stuff (yet), but this is very interesting!  It looks like a good shape though!

[Hillbilly voodoo]

1 hour ago, Big Epp said:

Pics Hillbilly?

I don't do any 3D design stuff (yet), but this is very interesting!  It looks like a good shape though!

All I have around is a few with defects but here is one. I have posted this design before but never mentioned the action.This design may go the way of the dodo because it is not as effective as others designs with lower material costs 

I have another old prototype with a less aggressive version of the action as well

personally I won’t be building anymore lures in this style of action because after plenty of testing it’s a meh action compared to others. It does catch lakers though and fairly consistently 

[mark poulson]

On 7/6/2020 at 6:47 PM, Vodkaman said:

"Let us consider the most talked about material; balsa, it has a density range of 0.40–0.340 g/cm^3. and if you are talking to me then you will need to get used to metric numbers, because I consider the USA preference for pounds and ounces archaic and inefficient especially in the world of material density, your primary material science in lure design."

Dave, if we were meant to use metric, we would have been born with ten fingers and ten toes....oh, wait.......  Hahaha

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mark poulson]

On 7/7/2020 at 7:26 AM, JB.TM said:

OK, there wasn't much input from me or maybe I didn't use the proper words (sorry, english is not my native language )

I've been doing quite a few hard baits which work fine, usually 3D designing it, then printing the master, sanding it if needed, pouring the mold then last step PU resin. All good so far, my crankbaits are wobbling just fine, the jointed lures are having the S movement so I think I'm doing it right But for this kind of "rolling" action I've been trying a few with no success. So I only wanted to ask for some advice about the bibs (angle, size) and weights (how many of them, position). I know it depends also on the shape and size of the lure so this is what I am trying to achieve:

After casting the PU resin for the prototype, I found (hopefully) the proper bib for it. A bit of weight where the black point is and for fast retrieval is seems to have nice rolling action. But I am not that confident because I tried it in calm water with no current.

Front view:

So...should I take care of some other aspects to make this work fine on the river?

Thanks in advance!

JB

I don't do 3D printing.  I barely type.  But I carve lures out of PVC, so I have some experience with trying to achieve a particular action.

My rule of thumb is rounder lures have roll, flatter sided lures don't.  Something to do with how the shape affects the water as it flows past (thank you Dave).  If I were you, like Wayne said, I would make some wood mockups of different cross sectioned lures that were otherwise similar in size, length, lip, and attitude in the water, and begin to experiment until I got a shape that acts the way I want it to, and then do my 3D printing based on that lure.  

[Vodkaman]

Mark - funny

For more roll, which I generally try to avoid, I would look to the lip. The forces that drive the lure action come off the lip perpendicular to the lip side. So, if the lip shape was more triangular in shape then the forces would impart more roll. The more angled the lip the more roll you get.

It is something to experiment with, like Mark stated.

Dave

[Hillbilly voodoo]

5 hours ago, Vodkaman said:

Mark - funny

For more roll, which I generally try to avoid, I would look to the lip. The forces that drive the lure action come off the lip perpendicular to the lip side. So, if the lip shape was more triangular in shape then the forces would impart more roll. The more angled the lip the more roll you get.

It is something to experiment with, like Mark stated.

Dave

I say you are bang on Dave. The bait I posted uses the lip in the pic. It is also a flat sided lure. The prototype with similar action I abandoned is also a flat side. similar style lips mounted between 45-50 degrees. This resulted in a bait that slams side to side. You can’t miss the action on the rod tip when trolling lol

Out of the species I have tested this action on only lake trout seem to really like it. Pike are not big on it, The guy I have testing on musky has had no luck, no luck on walleye, and a little only caught 2 bulls 

with the initial response I got from lakers I was expecting better results but not the cases

 

[Vodkaman]

Interesting Hillbilly. I had in mind much more angle. Yours looks like 15 deg per side (eyeball), I would go as far as 45 deg per side.

I have experimented with all kinds of lips, but I was never looking for roll.

I have my doubts about raising the ballast weight. The idea is that if the ballast weight lies on the roll (long) axis then roll would be easier, but it does not work like that. The lure likely swims nose down because of the lip. The rotation axis is horizontal at the swim direction, through the tow eye, so the argument would be to have the ballast as low as possible. As usual, this is all theory.

Test - hold a lure at the swim angle and view a horizontal line through the tow eye, and you will see what I mean.

Dave

[Vodkaman]

It goes against all thinking, but I believe that in action, the ballast is above the roll axis. This just seems wrong, it seems unstable, it seems illogical, but that is the way that I see it. Life would be much simpler if I was wrong in this case.

If someone can make a good argument why the rotation axis is down the center of the lure, then I would accept it

Dave

Edited July 10, 2020 by Vodkaman

[Hillbilly voodoo]

4 minutes ago, Vodkaman said:

Interesting Hillbilly. I had in mind much more angle. Yours looks like 15 deg per side (eyeball), I would go as far as 45 deg per side.

I have experimented with all kinds of lips, but I was never looking for roll.

I have my doubts about raising the ballast weight. The idea is that if the ballast weight lies on the roll (long) axis then roll would be easier, but it does not work like that. The lure likely swims nose down because of the lip. The rotation axis is horizontal at the swim direction, through the tow eye, so the argument would be to have the ballast as low as possible. As usual, this is all theory.

Test - hold a lure at the swim angle and view a horizontal line through the tow eye, and you will see what I mean.

Dave

Heading to work so can’t get into too much detail but the balist in the bait Is pure resin settled in the drop in the head section 

so yes low

[Vodkaman]

I will think on it, and we can pick up the discussion again.

Dave