Mags Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) I made a Durhams Water Putty mold of an Imakatsu Mogulla Moth Monster chatterbait. These baits are hard to find and expensive, but a chatterbait that really hunts and it catches them. I haven't seen any 1/2 ounce for sale in a while. I have one in my possession, so used it as my master. The original was 13 grams (about 1/2 ounce). The mold and castings came out as good as can be expected for a water putty mold. However the replica is 22 grams (about 3/4 ounce), considerably heavier than the original. No biggie as I can use a 3/4 ounce version, but for shallow stuff a 1/2 ounce is what I would like. I expected the replica to be a little heavier, but not 1/4 ounce heavier than the original. Measuring it with a digital caliper outside height and width dimensions are close (within a few mm), but the replica is definitely bigger. I am using soft lead. A few questions for those that do spin casting or one of a kind moulding. My question is did the manufacturer use some type of other material mixed with their lead (e.g., tin), and that is why it considerably lighter, or is it just inherent that the replica will be bigger? Is this type of increase in size expected in all molding materials? Can I expect a closer dimensional reproduction with a silicon mold? Believe I heard with silicone spin cast molds one could expect a 20% increase, and the master needed to be smaller than what the replica is intended to be. I have my doubts as to creating a really good master of this bait with sculpey, so maybe get a 1/4 ounce original to make 1/2 ounce replicas? I really enjoy molding my creations or making expensive/hard to find baits for myself and friends, but clearly I have a lot to learn to get really clean and accurate reproductions. Can anyone please share their experience/wisdom? Edited July 17, 2020 by Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Munkin Posted July 17, 2020 Report Share Posted July 17, 2020 Not really sure what happened unless the original had a lot of tin in it? Hard lead used for spincasting is lighter but only like 5%. Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasilofchrisn Posted July 18, 2020 Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 Did you remove all paint from your master first? Tin is ~1/3 lighter than lead so that may have been used to some extent as well. Casting in tin is pretty much as easy as lead. But pure tin is much more expensive. I sometimes find scrap pewter for a decent price. Pewter is often ~96% tin and is easy to cast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mags Posted July 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 I found tin for sale on ebay. I wouldn't need a lot as I am not going to be making a lot of these. Any ideas on what ratio tin to lead I should try? I have never used anything but lead. Here is the original and replica side-by-side. There is less than 1 mm difference in height, width and length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mags Posted July 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 (edited) Here are the measurements in mm. The replica is definitely larger dimensionally, but I wouldn't think enough to increase the weight by 9 grams. The neck is the where the throat meets the head (where skirt is tied) and where it meets the hook. Edited July 18, 2020 by Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mags Posted July 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 (edited) Another view from the other side of the replica (left) and original. The hole is where they must use a weedguard for another bait, as this one doesn't come with a weedguard. Also the wire for the blade on the original comes through the eye of a hook. You can see that in the photo up top. I used a 5/0 Mustad black nickel spinnerbait hook and brought the blade wire to the front through the nose. The lead filled the area where the hook eye was in the original, so it appears as if I have a hook eye in there also, but it is just lead. I have no idea if their hook comes all the way the front our how it is configured. If it does, it is a custom hook. The 5/0 Mustad is exactly the same bend as the original. Edited July 18, 2020 by Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mags Posted July 18, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2020 (edited) Wonder if I would get a more exact replica with a high temp silicone. And, use some tin mixed in with the lead. The Japanese bait manufacturers make some interesting stuff. This is one that really works well if you can find them. Edited July 18, 2020 by Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasilofchrisn Posted July 19, 2020 Report Share Posted July 19, 2020 It seems your replica weighs ~1/3 more than the original. That being said I would try a head made entirely of tin as tin is ~1/3 the weight of lead. If that doesn't work out weight wise then work your way up by adding lead 5% at a time until you get the desired weight. A jig in pure tin will be harder but shouldn't really effect things otherwise. How does the original do with the fingernail test of it's hardness? It melts at slightly lower temps than lead so no issues there. I believe silicone would make a better mold but I've honestly never made a mold using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mags Posted July 19, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) It is hard for me to tell what they used as far as lead hardness as the original has what I am guessing is a plated finish. Like a chrome plating. Never had any luck with a do-it-yourself chrome. I am not going to remove it, as I still want to fish this bait, and didn't when I made the mold. Gut feeling is it does seems harder than lead. Thanks for your help. I am going to order some tin ingots and give it a try with that. I will post up a final when I get one done. I cleared the 3/4 ounce heads last night with about 50 crankbaits I had on the rack and they look pretty good. I will have to see how they swim. When right this head has a super hunting action you won't get with an original chatterbait, but as posted earlier they are super hard to find unless you want to pay $30 or more each. Right now you can't find any at a reasonable price from a reputable seller. I have used silicone for molds in the past, but it is pretty expensive and I can't say I have had really good luck getting them to pour very well. As with many things when you don't have a mentor, or formal training, trial and error is what you have to do. I am going to try a different silicone than I have used in the past. In the past I have used Smooth On Max Mold 60. It is kind of a pain to work with and has a really obnoxious smell. I really am driven to get clean castings as well as accurate reproductions as the price for a lot of these baits is absolutely ridiculous and I like to throw baits in the nasty stuff with no fear of losing them. I also just like making one of a kind stuff, which has kept me going during the pandemic. Durhams is a cheap material, but there are limits as to what quality you can get, at least in my experience. Here are a few very old Bagleys I repainted, that I had already painted 15 years ago and didn't like. Just pulled the tape from the bills. They came out pretty good. Gonna fish them this fall when the fish get back on the bank. Off to service a transmission. Real work. Edited July 19, 2020 by Mags Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted July 19, 2020 Report Share Posted July 19, 2020 Maybe I'm looking at them wrong, but one picture looks like they have a vertical eye, and the other they look horizontal. Assuming I'm just crazy, you could drill out a weed guard hole in your replica to reduce weight, and then maybe begin shortening the neck to see if you can get close to the same weight. Last, you could try filing some of the lead off of the two flats behind the nose. If you get close to the weight you want, you can alter your mold to match your changes. I don't know if that will help, but it is what I would try. And using a harder lead can't hurt, since the blade will be banging against the head on the retrieve. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mags Posted July 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2020 Yes, the vertical eye is the wire I have bent that is attached to the spinnerbait hook and blade, and the horizontal eye is a hook eye Imakatsu has in the head they run the wire through. My mold left the impression of the hook eye, but it is now lead. I have no idea where they got a hook like that, unless it is a piece of a hook with an eye they put in the mold to run the wire through. I could melt the bait and see, but I'd have to get another master. I have a friend that is a well known jig maker and he does a grass jig with a salmon hook (the best grass jig ever in my opinion) and a piece of a hook for the eye, but I've never seen exactly how he does it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mags Posted July 21, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2020 I have some tin on the way. $25 for one pound on Amazon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted July 22, 2020 Report Share Posted July 22, 2020 In my limited experience, finding a hook that will match what you have is better than trying to use some kind of a wire with an open eye. The ones I tried never were strong enough. At APDriver's suggestion, I found a Mustad jig hook that works in my Do-It Arky mold, and I can open the eye with an awl to get the blade attached. Then a small pair of channel locks squeezes it closed again, and it never opens on a fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mags Posted July 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2020 100% tin worked. 15 grams. Close enough. Thanks for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasilofchrisn Posted July 24, 2020 Report Share Posted July 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Mags said: 100% tin worked. 15 grams. Close enough. Thanks for all the help. Nice to hear it worked out for you. That may be a reason it works so well. Larger profile but lighter in weight. That would also account for the chrome like appearance. Tin can have that appearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
