New guy, old questions

[exx1976]

Hi!  I've learned a LOT just by reading this forum (as well as many other sources, and watching youtube videos, among other things), so thank you guys for posting.  This place is an incredible wealth of knowledge!  Been reading for about 2 months.  Decided to start making my own musky lures, and I seem to have an issue I'm not sure how to solve.  Before I go ruining the 5 baits I've got sitting here waiting, I figured perhaps the time had come to sign up for an account and ask you guys.

 

The lures I have are completed, save for epoxy.  Thing is, the epoxy I'm using, eTex, doesn't seem to want to bond very well to some of the colors I'm using (Createx - but issues are with the pearls and metallics).  I'm getting fisheyes in the three lures I've already epoxied, and I'm not sure what to do about them.  To fix the fisheye in the existing ones, I'm going to just use small amounts of epoxy and let the lures cure to fill in those holes.  But before I go epoxying the remaining 5 (all painted the same), I thought I'd ask you guys how to prevent/fix this.

 

A few things:  After the lures have been sealed with sanding sealer, they are never again touched with bare hands.  I work in latex for all the painting/priming/hook hangers/etc.  The lures are blown off with compressed air from my airbrush prior to epoxy to ensure there's no surface contamination/dust.  My epoxy drying rig is a 2x2x3' box covered in 4mil plastic sheet, so there's nothing landing on them or settling on them during curing.  I am not thinning the epoxy at all, and I mix it according to the instructions on the box.  I'm not having any issues with it clouding or curing to hardness, just the fisheyes.  I'm mixing it and then letting it sit for a few minutes (2-3?) before application.  I've tried letting it sit 10 minutes, but by the time I get to the third bait, it's already so sticky that it's very difficult to work with.  I am not interested in switching to D2T, I tried it, and the working time is just too short for me, as an amateur.  I'm not that fast at all this yet.  Perhaps as I improve, but for now, I need the longer working time of eTex.

 

Some thoughts I had:  Shoot them with a clearcoat (probably rattle can), and then epoxy while that's still just a bit tacky so the epoxy has something better to adhere to (the aforementioned pearls and metallics dry to a very slick finish), or, shoot them with clear, let it fully cure, then scuff it with like a scotchbrite pad or similar prior to epoxy.

 

The problem with #1 is I don't know if the trapped solvent will be an issue from not letting it cure.  The problem with #2 is I don't know if that would create a "cloudy" look to them, which I want to avoid.  I spent a LOT of time painting these, and I want to be sure the paint job shows the amount of effort I put into it.

 

Thanks in advance for all your help!

Edited November 25, 2020 by exx1976

[B0w_bender]

Probably why a lot of folks start with a complete base coat of Gesso. That's what I do but more so that I have a consistent base color. The better coverage is just an unexpected bonus that I was unaware of.

[exx1976]

I just looked up that product, and it appears to be a primer.  Not sure how that's going to help me?  My issue is with epoxy adhering to the paint, not paint adhering to primer.

 

Or do they make a clear topcoat as well?  I don't know anything about that product, just plugged "Gesso" into google, and it all talks about using it on canvas prior to painting.

 

Could you link to the exact product you're referring to?

Edited November 25, 2020 by exx1976

[JD_mudbug]

I mostly make large baits and use D2T.  It sometimes does fish eye on certain foils and decals and can make certain inks runs. In those situations, I do spray a mid-coat of polycrylic. Rustoleum 2x clear works. MinWax makes one too. I do let the mid-coat fully dry. If it is not dry, it causes problems with D2T sliding off into sags or air blisters under the D2T. I use a hair dryer or heat gun to blow off the lure before the coats. That way the lure gets a bit of heat and I don't spray any residual water vapor or brush cleaner onto the bait.

Other possibilities for problems to arise could be too much humidity or temp (or low temp) in the drying area. With metallics, you have to close to optimal on the curing conditions. The spec sheets for Etex say the optimal temp is 75F, between 70-80F should be good. You have to make sure both the hardener bottle and resin bottle are at the proper temp. Put the bottles in a container of warm water up to the level of the product to get them to 70 if you have to. Etex cures best at low humidity, 50% or less. You might need a dehumidifier. The sheets also say the surface should be dry. So, I would not go the tacky mid-coat route. Keep any curing lures away from propane heaters as moisture vapor is given off when burning propane.

I believe some people on here spray Createx clear as a mid-coat, but I have not used that. It's acrylic so it should work.

I have never had luck with scuffing up the mid-coat. When I have scuffed up the mid-coat, the lure ends up looking cloudy or hazy. I just put the epoxy right on the spray clear once it is completely dry.

[exx1976]

3 hours ago, JD_mudbug said:

I mostly make large baits and use D2T.  It sometimes does fish eye on certain foils and decals and can make certain inks runs. In those situations, I do spray a mid-coat of polycrylic. Rustoleum 2x clear works. MinWax makes one too. I do let the mid-coat fully dry. If it is not dry, it causes problems with D2T sliding off into sags or air blisters under the D2T. I use a hair dryer or heat gun to blow off the lure before the coats. That way the lure gets a bit of heat and I don't spray any residual water vapor or brush cleaner onto the bait.

Other possibilities for problems to arise could be too much humidity or temp (or low temp) in the drying area. With metallics, you have to close to optimal on the curing conditions. The spec sheets for Etex say the optimal temp is 75F, between 70-80F should be good. You have to make sure both the hardener bottle and resin bottle are at the proper temp. Put the bottles in a container of warm water up to the level of the product to get them to 70 if you have to. Etex cures best at low humidity, 50% or less. You might need a dehumidifier. The sheets also say the surface should be dry. So, I would not go the tacky mid-coat route. Keep any curing lures away from propane heaters as moisture vapor is given off when burning propane.

I believe some people on here spray Createx clear as a mid-coat, but I have not used that. It's acrylic so it should work.

I have never had luck with scuffing up the mid-coat. When I have scuffed up the mid-coat, the lure ends up looking cloudy or hazy. I just put the epoxy right on the spray clear once it is completely dry.

That is EXACTLY what I was looking for, thank you!!

 

I'm curing them in my unfinished, but very DRY, basement.  Humidity is low, especially now that it's the dead of winter.  In summer the house is air conditioned, so humidity is also quite low.  It is a bit chilly in there, so I have them under a 100 watt shop lamp to provide heat.

I like the idea of using a heat gun instead of the airbrush, I will definitely switch to using that method.

 

I've been setting the paint (all of it, not just metallics and pearls) using a heat gun before moving on to the next color, so I know those are fully dried.

I have 5 lures waiting for epoxy now.  Friday I'll hit up the local place and pick up some rustoleum 2x and shoot them and report back on how that worked.  Thank you so much for the assist!!

 

Tight lines,

exx

Edited November 26, 2020 by exx1976

[Vodkaman]

You do seem to have all the bases covered, you have done your research and covered all the rules. Also good advice above.

I was reluctant to wade in here as I am NOT a painter, but I have been reading these posts for 13 years.

My first observation is the compressor; does it have a water trap fitted that is working. Test it; from a safe distance, direct the air onto your hand. Is there any moisture, dampness evident?

Secondly, what are you mixing the Etex in; a plastic cup, a paper cup, glass vessel, etc. Some throw away cups have a wax coating in them, particularly the paper cups. Again, try a test; pour very hot water in the vessel, stir, and see if anything floats, like globs of oil, or is there an oil sheen on the surface?

The same goes for the gloves but less likely, but test in hot water just in case.

We WILL get to the bottom of this.

Dave

Edited November 26, 2020 by Vodkaman

[exx1976]

36 minutes ago, Vodkaman said:

You do seem to have all the bases covered, you have done your research and covered all the rules. Also good advice above.

I was reluctant to wade in here as I am NOT a painter, but I have been reading these posts for 13 years.

My first observation is the compressor; does it have a water trap fitted that is working. Test it; from a safe distance, direct the air onto your hand. Is there any moisture, dampness evident?

Secondly, what are you mixing the Etex in; a plastic cup, a paper cup, glass vessel, etc. Some throw away cups have a wax coating in them, particularly the paper cups. Again, try a test; pour very hot water in the vessel, stir, and see if anything floats, like globs of oil, or is there an oil sheen on the surface?

The same goes for the gloves but less likely, but test in hot water just in case.

We WILL get to the bottom of this.

Dave

I've read a number of your posts - I very much like your scientific approach!!!

 

I'm mixing the epoxy in disposable plastic cups that are graduated in ml, like the type you'd find on the top of a bottle of NyQuil.  I'm mixing it with disposable plastic sticks that look like sucker sticks.  I'm applying it with disposable plastic brushes that are used by rod builders ($25/100).  The compressor is fitted with not one, but two moisture traps.  I always spray my hand first to make sure it's truly dry and empty.

 

The gloves are single-use disposable latex that I got on Amazon.

 

I found this post particularly interesting - https://www.crosslinktech.com/articles/fish-eyes-in-epoxy-or-polyurethane-coating.html as it talks about the actual reason that fisheyes occur, rather than the things that can cause them.  That's what led me to the conclusion that it was likely the paint, since they seem to be happening mostly on the back of the bait, which was finished with a thick (many layers) coating of pearl black and is very slick (you can tell just by looking at it).

Edited November 26, 2020 by exx1976

[Vodkaman]

Good article.

Your idea of a clear-coat that can be lightly scuffed now seems promising. The scratch marks will not be visible.

The few times I use an epoxy top coat, I really scrub it into the surface hard, before smoothing out with long strokes.

I cannot think of any more ideas, so good luck

Dave

[mark poulson]

When I have a problem with my painting/topcoat system on a lure, before I add the topcoat, I paint up a sample on a test piece with the same shape as the problem area, and play around with different changes until I find one that works.

[eastman03]

Honestly, it sounds like you are pretty well prepared and educated as far as clear coating with epoxy goes.  I also make muskie lures, and have been doing so for about 5 years (wow, I still feel like a newbie lol).   Your lures look great by the way!  

Here were my initial thoughts.  - compresser spraying water/oil, but it sounds like that should not be an issue. - paint not fully cured.  Sounds like that should not be an issue.  - I have had cheap rubber gloves with some powder on it that I think was an issue.  Same with cheap syringes that had some oil or something that contaminated my lures.    - temp/humidity.  Honestly etex is a fickle b***.   I used it exclusively for the first two years, and every time I though I got it down pat, one of my lures would have a drip or a fish eye.  It is frustrating.  Warming etex seems to help, and really brush it on well everywhere, but warming it also speeds up cure time a bit.  

Here is my checklist that I often repost for a good finish.

Also check out engineered angler and his steps on a perfect finish on youtube.  I got the idea spraying with a mid coat to help achieve a perfect finish from him.  That has really helped consistency.  I do exactly what he said, and slightly dilute polycrilic, and airbrush it on.   

 

Honestly, I like etex when the finish ends up being perfect, but it was just so finicky that I have ditched it for another epoxy with a long working time.   I really like alumilite clear cast, it seems to be way way more forgiving and consistency gives me good finishes.    There are others that are also good from what I have heard, but that does not really solve your problem right now lol.  More than any epoxy, people (myself included) seem to have issues with etex.  I wish I could pinpoint your problem.  Hope some of this info helps.  Keep us informed about how it goes.

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by eastman03
accidental post

[exx1976]

1 hour ago, eastman03 said:

Honestly, it sounds like you are pretty well prepared and educated as far as clear coating with epoxy goes.  I also make muskie lures, and have been doing so for about 5 years (wow, I still feel like a newbie lol).   Your lures look great by the way!  

Here were my initial thoughts.  - compresser spraying water/oil, but it sounds like that should not be an issue. - paint not fully cured.  Sounds like that should not be an issue.  - I have had cheap rubber gloves with some powder on it that I think was an issue.  Same with cheap syringes that had some oil or something that contaminated my lures.    - temp/humidity.  Honestly etex is a fickle b***.   I used it exclusively for the first two years, and every time I though I got it down pat, one of my lures would have a drip or a fish eye.  It is frustrating.  Warming etex seems to help, and really brush it on well everywhere, but warming it also speeds up cure time a bit.  

Here is my checklist that I often repost for a good finish.

Also check out engineered angler and his steps on a perfect finish on youtube.  I got the idea spraying with a mid coat to help achieve a perfect finish from him.  That has really helped consistency.  I do exactly what he said, and slightly dilute polycrilic, and airbrush it on.   

 

Honestly, I like etex when the finish ends up being perfect, but it was just so finicky that I have ditched it for another epoxy with a long working time.   I really like alumilite clear cast, it seems to be way way more forgiving and consistency gives me good finishes.    There are others that are also good from what I have heard, but that does not really solve your problem right now lol.  More than any epoxy, people (myself included) seem to have issues with etex.  I wish I could pinpoint your problem.  Hope some of this info helps.  Keep us informed about how it goes.

 

Yes, after replying to that post yesterday evening, I had this nagging little voice in my head about the gloves, so I went and checked - no powder.  So powder was not accidentally getting from the inside of the gloves onto the outside of an adjacent glove while still in the box.  Ruled that out when the box said "powder-free".

 

You do bring up an interesting point, though.  I wonder if I was not putting it on thick enough?  I have since changed the way I'm holding the baits on the drying rig.  In that pic, the baits were attached to the drying rig first, then I applied the epoxy while they were on there.  That was a bear to do, and if I applied it too thick, it would begin to run funny.  Last night, I applied the final coat of eTex to them, but prior to doing so, I dismantled those alligator clip arms, and then used spring clamps to hold the lures directly onto the shaft by the lip.  Because of that change, I was able to hold the lure by the lip and apply the etex that way, then clip it to the turner.  It was not only much easier to apply the epoxy, but I also was able to apply it thicker.  When it would want to start to run a bit, I'd just rotate the lure in my hand and continue application.

 

I'm not sure I'll stay with eTex or not.  I've heard from another builder, a local guy, that he also prefers the Alumilite.  Being that I'm still just getting started, the two I chose to experiment with were D2T and eTex, since they are the most popular mentions on this site.  I haven't been measuring with syringes, I'm just using the ml indicators on the sides of the cups.  10ml total seems to be about the correct amount for coating 3 of my baits.  I'm almost to the end of the 4oz bottles I started with, but I did already order and receive a couple 16 oz bottles.  If I continue having issues with it, I'll likely order up some Alumilite to try next.

 

I will come back and update this post to let you guys know how I get on.  In the mean time, if anyone else reading has any other ideas for me, I'm all ears!!  

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by exx1976

[B0w_bender]

OP, I owe you an apology, it is a serious pet peeve of mine when posters don't actually take the time to read and understand the original post and then they respond with idiotic responses that don't actually address the issue of concern. Ah ya well ah ya that was ah my post  in a nutshell, I'm a jackass completely guilty as charged.  Sorry!

OK on to solving the problem, You may have already seen this but if you haven't the engineered angler addresses this issue. I am not a fan of his lure aesthetics but his systematic approach to problem solving and build process is a breath of fresh air. I find his content in general to be very informative!

 

[Vodkaman]

41 minutes ago, B0w_bender said:

OP, I owe you an apology, it is a serious pet peeve of mine when posters don't actually take the time to read and understand the original post and then they respond with idiotic responses that don't actually address the issue of concern.

 

I have been guilty way more than once or twice myself

[LHL]

I used Etex for a year before giving it up. It was too soft for my liking and the teeth from pike and musky would go right through multiple layers of clear coat. I also had issues with fisheyes (because I didn't use gloves when handling) but never because of pearlized paints. Another suggestion that might work for you is I wipe down all of my lures with ammonia free glass cleaner and allowing it to fully dry before clear coating. Just spray it on a paper towel and VERY lightly wipe the bait. Since I started doing that and wearing gloves I haven't had fisheye problems. 

[exx1976]

59 minutes ago, LHL said:

I used Etex for a year before giving it up. It was too soft for my liking and the teeth from pike and musky would go right through multiple layers of clear coat. I also had issues with fisheyes (because I didn't use gloves when handling) but never because of pearlized paints. Another suggestion that might work for you is I wipe down all of my lures with ammonia free glass cleaner and allowing it to fully dry before clear coating. Just spray it on a paper towel and VERY lightly wipe the bait. Since I started doing that and wearing gloves I haven't had fisheye problems. 

What epoxy did you switch to?

[LHL]

1 minute ago, exx1976 said:

What epoxy did you switch to?

I've switched to EX-74 now and really enjoy the results. You can only purchase it in large quantities (1 gallon each of hardener and resin) so if you're only thinking about making a handful of baits a year I would advise against it.

[exx1976]

Just now, LHL said:

I've switched to EX-74 now and really enjoy the results. You can only purchase it in large quantities (1 gallon each of hardener and resin) so if you're only thinking about making a handful of baits a year I would advise against it.

What's the working time like?  D2T is just too short for me.

[LHL]

18 minutes ago, exx1976 said:

What's the working time like?  D2T is just too short for me.

EX-74 has very similar working time as Etex. It takes about 6 hours to get to a tack free stage and 24 hours to fully cure. EX-74 becomes too gummy to work with after about an hour so it should give you plenty of time. I too work slow and usually try to coat multiple baits at the same time so mixing up one big batch of epoxy to clear coat everything has working just fine for me.