Epoxy Before Paint

[fishordie79]

Hey TU Folks!

 I've been seeing some folks do a layer or two of epoxy before painting, or even painting, then epoxying, then painting and epoxying again. Just wondering what advantages/disadvantages doing it this way has? I've never come across a situation in which I felt I needed to epoxy before the painting process was complete. 

Thanks for your input!

[RPM]

fishordiie79

it's just another way to seal your bait. Some guys use epoxy where others are using another sealer. Mostly for Balsa from my experience as you have to seal balsa with something and epoxy is what guys are clear coating with so it makes sense. I used to use moisture cure urethane and would dip the unpainted baits 1-3 times, let them cure, then scuff, paint and redip 1-3 coats for my final clear coat. My guess is guys are using epoxy because it makes sense to use what you have instead of sealing with one thing then using epoxy as thier final clear coat. The only thing about epoxy is you have to be careful with ballast because epoxy weighs more than some other sealers and it adds weight to your lures especially if used for multiple coats so care must be taken for your final weight consideration. If your attempting to make a slow rise or suspending plug adding to much weight will alter the ability to rise and cause the lure to sink if to much epoxy is used, I've had lures weighted just right and used to much final clear coat causing an ill effect from my intentions ie ( e-tex ) adds quite a bit of weight if put on to hevily.

A very succesful lure builder suggested e-tex used at cooled temps to add viscosity, I experimented with this and had some success but you have to be careful because it's hard to guage the amount of clear I brushed on each lure. The big bennefit to KBS, D Nites, and other MCU's is it can be dipped, goes on thinner and the weight added to your lure is much less than epoxy type clear coats.

I hope that makes sense.

Rich    

Edited December 6, 2020 by RPM

[Vodkaman]

Exx1976 - I was thinking 3D aesthetics also. Many use glitter in their final top-coat layer for the same reason.

Dave

[exx1976]

Just now, Vodkaman said:

Exx1976 - I was thinking 3D aesthetics also. Many use glitter in their final top-coat layer for the same reason.

Dave

Man, I've been having a difficult time with this site lately.  Couldn't send you a PM, then I couldn't edit my post that you're referencing, so I copied it and deleted it, now it won't let me post it again..  No idea what's going on. 

[Vodkaman]

I am having the same posting problem. I saved my text,so if this works now, I will go back and post.

Postscript - OK, it worked

Post postscript - nope, still cannot post on the other thread!

Dave

Edited December 6, 2020 by Vodkaman

[exx1976]

8 minutes ago, Vodkaman said:

I am having the same posting problem. I saved my text,so if this works now, I will go back and post.

Postscript - OK, it worked

Post postscript - nope, still cannot post on the other thread!

Dave

Same.  I saved that text in a notepad to come back and post it again later, if it works.  So far, no love...

[JD_mudbug]

As others have stated, some people use epoxy as a sealer. Others use it to have a smooth surface to start painting on so no sanding marks, seams (lure body or foil), or ballast hole fill-ins show through the paint.  Others use it to add depth to paint schemes. You can paint your base colors, clear coat it, and then add another paint coat with mesh to give a more 3D look to scales.  You can also use epoxy mid paint job before any substantial fine detail work in case you mess that up. 

Disadvantages: lure is bulkier and weighs more with an additional epoxy coat. It could shift how the lure sits in the water. There are too many variables to say whether it would cut down the action, change diving depth, or suspension, but it very well could. It will matter on a 110 type suspending jerkbait, ballast or hooks/rings will have to be adjusted. It probably won’t matter on a bulbous high floating 2 ounce crankbait. If joints, hook hangers, and toe point are set/mounted before sealing, multiple epoxy coats could create clearance issues.

I have done a base epoxy or spar urethane coats on a few baits. I don’t see enough difference in the depth of the paint to make it worth it. I think a thinned based coat does add a lot to durability. I dipped a bait in spar urethane thinned with mineral spirits for a sealing base coat. The bait had a center-drilled shaft for through wiring that I wanted to seal. That bait has held up very well to numerous northeast bluefish which can wreck baits. I have used epoxy thinned with denatured alcohol as a sealer on salt water baits that have also held up very well. I guess if you are targeting toothy fish or want to get a good seal on a wire through shaft hole an extra coat of something durable is always a plus.

Usually, I just seal with superglue for ease and convenience.
 

[Travis]

Balsa about the only time someone seals a bait with epoxy.   With social media now you see a lot of guys doing stuff that well.. 

Typically I see it's use more for paint effect such as over foil or as mentioned glitter.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Travis

[eastman03]

 

I would say that most musky lure makers put a layer or two of epoxy before, and a few after as well.  I use it exactly for all of the reasons posted above.  Sealing. Making a perfectly smooth base for paint.  Strength, it is only a matter of time before a lure gets scratched, or punctured with big teeth in my case.   It works as a base for glitter, or covering over a foil job, to help with the 3d effect.     Lots of reasons in my case to use epoxy as a base.  Weight isn't too much of an 6-14oz lure, so a bit of extra epoxy isn't a factor.

[exx1976]

6 minutes ago, eastman03 said:

 

I would say that most musky lure makers put a layer or two of epoxy before, and a few after as well.  I use it exactly for all of the reasons posted above.  Sealing. Making a perfectly smooth base for paint.  Strength, it is only a matter of time before a lure gets scratched, or punctured with big teeth in my case.   It works as a base for glitter, or covering over a foil job, to help with the 3d effect.     Lots of reasons in my case to use epoxy as a base.  Weight isn't too much of an 6-14oz lure, so a bit of extra epoxy isn't a factor.

There's a local guy who uses 2 coats of epoxy to seal prior to paint, then seals the paint with 2 coats of epoxy.  This provides 4 coats of protection against teeth.

I don't see the point.  Let me expand on that - in the configuration above, 2 coats of epoxy protect the wood, and help to provide a flat surface to paint on.  Then that paint job, that you took all that trouble to make look pretty, is protected by 2 more layers of epoxy.  The net result?  The wood is protected by 4 coats of epoxy, but the paint only by two.

In my opinion, if you can get the necessary flat surface on which to paint without the use of epoxy, it makes more sense to put the 4 coats on the top.  Then you have 4 coats protecting the wood AND the paint.

 

Am I looking at this wrong somehow?  Is there actually some benefit to using the epoxy beneath the paint, aside from a flat surface to paint on?

[eastman03]

It is a valid question for sure.   I typically use one layer of epoxy to seal/smooth out the body.  Maybe a second one if I have some issues or need to smooth out some foil or something.   I have painted my wooden blanks sealed with polyurethane, and I've tried polycrilic and spar urethane, they all work, but nowhere near as smooth as epoxy.     Yea as far as protecting the paint, it seems like it would only make sense to put most of the epoxy top of that layer.     

[exx1976]

9 minutes ago, eastman03 said:

It is a valid question for sure.   I typically use one layer of epoxy to seal/smooth out the body.  Maybe a second one if I have some issues or need to smooth out some foil or something.   I have painted my wooden blanks sealed with polyurethane, and I've tried polycrilic and spar urethane, they all work, but nowhere near as smooth as epoxy.     Yea as far as protecting the paint, it seems like it would only make sense to put most of the epoxy top of that layer.     

A couple of my boat anchor lures, the underlying surface wasn't ONE HUNDRED PERCENT flat.  After paint and epoxy, the exterior was all flattened out, but it left some interesting designs/patterns in the paint.  I rather liked it.  I felt like it contributed to the "realism" of the baitfish look, since nature isn't as perfect as we'd all like to believe.  Of course, I am completely unable to replicate that, and the next time, they may not come out looking as neat.  LOL

I'm still experimenting, but I'm starting to come to the conclusion that all this talk of sealing the wood may or may not just be something we tell ourselves to make ourselves feel better.  At the end of the day, Musky teeth can get through nearly anything we put on the lure, and short of magically making wood impervious to the effects of water, nothing is going to prevent damage.  If we are going to rely on epoxy to get the job done, and epoxy is all that will be used (unless you're doing something not mentioned in your previous post), why not just flatten the wood, prime it, then 4 coats of epoxy on top?  This assumes that it is being done only as a sealant and to flatten for paint.  Then we can avoid the CA sealing, or  spar urethane, or any of that.  Just prime, paint, and 3 or 4 or 5 coats of epoxy and call it a day.  Rely on that epoxy to both seal the wood and protect the paint, and dispense with the other time-consuming stuff.

Thoughts?

[eastman03]

Yea there seems to be many ways to seal a lure and I'm not sure how helpful any of them are apart from a clean painting surface.  From heating a lure to let the pores open, soaking it overnight, epoxy, urethanes, but basically a musky lure that works good (meaning used a lot and catches fish) will eventually look destroyed.   And that is a good thing.  I do choose wood that has good buoyancy properties, but also naturally rot and water resistant; like cedar.  There is a good reason it is used for docks and shingles.     

I just snapped this pic of a few of my favorites for a random case study.   The orange and white belly lures are suicks (my fav lure of all time).  They are not finished that well and the wood quickly shows through, but man they just keep working.   Also that white belly lure if you look closely enough was my motivation to make that gold sparkly lure.  After I set the hook on a fish and that hook hanger just came out and I lost a big fish (the orange one also lost a hook hanger on a rock).  So I made a larger suick, with through wire for myself.  After using it for several years, you can see how several layers of epoxy handles hook rash and many muskies!  But it isn't impervious to destruction as you can see the front is starting to look destroyed from many rocks. 

The striped lure is a big weagle (also one of my favorites).  It has a deep gouge from the middle hook.  It took many years of use to get it like this lol.  I believe it is epoxy finished, feels like it anyway.  Not sure what wood this lure uses, but it seems to sit a bit lower in the water after a few hours of use, so it isn't totally perfect anymore (still works).

Maybe i'm just imagining as well, but does glitter combined with epoxy created a stronger barrier?  I feel like the lures that I make with a glitter/epoxy base seem to be more impervious to hook rash.  Anyway don't want to hijack this post too far off topic lol. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by eastman03

[exx1976]

To me, if I manage to finally catch that elusive 50, I don't care much what kind of condition the lure is in afterwards - it served it's purpose and got the fish into the net.

The the glitter question - interesting.  I'll keep an eye out for that since I will be using glitter on some of my baits.  Any particular glitter you're using that you're seeing this result with?

As for cedar...  Yes, that's a popular choice, but I opted against it for my crankbaits - mostly because those same properties that make it rot resistant also make the sawdust generated from working it toxic.  That's no bueno.  My workshop is in the basement, so I can't be having toxic sawdust all over the place.

[eastman03]

That is a downside with cedar for sure, gotta be careful with the dust.  It seems to be any glitter I use.  I mostly use either silver or gold glitter that I get from michaels.  Just some basic small Martha Steward stuff.  I'm not sure if I'm actually seeing a difference in strength, or if it is just that glitter can hide scratches better.  

[Big Epp]

Question, if I were to thin some spar urethane with mineral spirits and put it in a jar for dipping, how long do you think it would keep?

Also, I saw a guy who finishes stuff with epoxy then adds a coat of spar urethane over the epoxy.  He said without it the epoxy will yellow.  Has anyone else had this problem?  I'm using E-Tex.

[eastman03]

It must take some extreme conditions for epoxy to yellow, as I've had several lures with different paint schemes, and different epoxies on the deck of my boat for much of the summer and I've only noticed once a discoloration.  It wasn't even the epoxy yellowing, it was the purple stripes I put on disappeared.  Honestly I think most high quality finishes are quite resistant to yellowing unless you leave your lures on your roof year round.  I have seen some videos from Japanese lure makers coating their finished lures with urethane or something, so who knows maybe there is something to it.

I used to use spar urethane thinned down.  And it lasted very very long in a glass canning jar that I had sealed up, like over a year for sure.  Occasionally I would stir it up and maybe add a bit more thinner.  I probably could still use it, but I kinda changed methods.

[JD_mudbug]

The only epoxies I have seen yellow have been the 5 minute types. I have not had D2T or Etex yellow. I kept my thinned spar urethane in the original can which is definitely not the best storage way. Air got in and it skinned over. I kept using it after peeling the skin off the top. It worked fine for a couple of months until it was used up. I was only using it to seal.  I did have to add some extra mineral spirits as the spar did get thicker over time. If I use spar again, I would use a jar as Eastman said maybe with a piece of saran wrap under the lid for extra sealing.

Just my opinion, but I would not go with a urethane over epoxy in the topcoat. Most of the urethanes will yellow or amber over time. Some of the water based urethanes say they do not yellow. I think even those yellow a bit, probably not noticeably unless on something white. KBS is one of the better urethanes for lure topcoats. But, you have to real careful with storage and it is more expensive.

[Vodkaman]

The worst enemy of any topcoat, or lure for that matter, is direct sunlight. You would be amazed at the temperatures that can be generated.

Sunlight seems to mess with the chemistry of topcoats and causes yellowing of the best of them. Worse still, it causes internal moisture expansion which can cause separation of the topcoat, and it will likely force an escape route, and even cause cracking.

Once moisture finds a way out, water can find a way in.

Protect your lures, you spent so much time creating them.

Dave