Choosing the correct wire?

[Vodkaman]

If the label says 304 then you are good.

Dave

[eastman03]

I don't know too much about the specs about wire.  308 304 etc..  I used .051" Malins lock wire for my first couple of lures, and it works just fine.  It is meant to be bent and tie off (lock) pins and stuff into place, so honestly it was a tiny bit too "flexible" for me making musky lures.  I also got annoyed of having to start with a coiled up piece of wire.  It straightens out ok if you cut a piece and bend an eye into the one end, hook it around a nail or something solid, and just give the other end a few quick pulls.  I have moved on to using Stainless steel .062" tig welding rod (i think that is 308).   It is more available for myself, and I love starting with a straight piece of wire. 

[Judgie]

The 300 series stainless steel is non heat treatable, so no it can not be annealed.

The 400 series stainless is hear treatable and can be softened or hardened.

There are many options to stainless steel and many series including 700 series.

Inconel, nickel, monel, bronze, nickel bronze, are also to be considered if available check you local welding supplier

sometime they have rolls of stainless that can't be used for welding, for one reason or another, and you can get real cheap..

[Vodkaman]

304 is the most common stainless wire fortunately for us. Yes it is soft and it bends easily, again, fortunately for us.

304 also cold work hardens. This means that when you work it into a series of tight bends when making a twisted eye, the material automatically hardens, as you will discover if you try to unwind a tight set of coils. This again is in our favour.

So, don't be fooled in to thinking that this material is too soft for our purposes. Once bent into the shape that we want, it automatically toughens up.

When I have tested SS twisted eyes with heavy loads, there was distortion of the eye shape. So, knowing that the material cold work hardens, you could make the first eye shape bend twice or even three times (but no more). This would ensure maximum work hardening of the eye. Note - I have not tried this idea, it just occurred to me now.

Dave

[exx1976]

27 minutes ago, Vodkaman said:

304 is the most common stainless wire fortunately for us. Yes it is soft and it bends easily, again, fortunately for us.

304 also cold work hardens. This means that when you work it into a series of tight bends when making a twisted eye, the material automatically hardens, as you will discover if you try to unwind a tight set of coils. This again is in our favour.

So, don't be fooled in to thinking that this material is too soft for our purposes. Once bent into the shape that we want, it automatically toughens up.

When I have tested SS twisted eyes with heavy loads, there was distortion of the eye shape. So, knowing that the material cold work hardens, you could make the first eye shape bend twice or even three times (but no more). This would ensure maximum work hardening of the eye. Note - I have not tried this idea, it just occurred to me now.

Dave

Hrmm...   Granted, I have far more experience in work hardening with brass than I do stainless steel, but..  I'd be surprised if only bending it once or twice hardens it as much as you say.  I would nearly certainly not expect that simply bending a wire form causes it to automatically toughen up.

[UKandy]

Would it make a great difference in using 340 opposed to 340L?

I understand 340L is low carbon?

Andy.

[Vodkaman]

1 hour ago, exx1976 said:

Hrmm...   Granted, I have far more experience in work hardening with brass than I do stainless steel, but..  I'd be surprised if only bending it once or twice hardens it as much as you say.  I would nearly certainly not expect that simply bending a wire form causes it to automatically toughen up.

It needs testing out for sure, but it makes sense to me.

Next time you're in the workshop, take a length of 304 wire, place behind the eye-pin and bend 180 degrees or more, then reverse (unwrap).  The wire will have a definite kink at the eye position, this is due to the work hardening of the bent part of the wire.

Repeat a second time. If I am correct then the kinked portion will be more formed due to more work hardening of the region. For the test, repeat a few more times to find out how many times to achieve the maximum work hardening - experiment.

Dave

[Vodkaman]

I just had a quick play, but it is very tedious without a vise to hold the pin.

I would say bend 90 degrees around the pin and straighten, repeat three times, then wrap the twists. The eye portion is definitely a lot tougher.

You would have to do comparison load tests (hang a bucket of water) to see if the actions reduce eye distortion.

Dave

[JD_mudbug]

The Malin stainless safety wire is 304 annealed. The link I gave above for Wire Specialties is also 304 annealed. Malin color codes their canisters for different safety/locking wire types. Blue is 304 annealed stainless. I believe other major manufacturers have followed Malin's lead in color coding. Always check the company's website for specs to be sure, but blue canister safety/locking wire is most likely going to be 304 annealed from a major wire manufacturer.

304L (L= extra low carbon) is a bit weaker than 304, roughly 5% weaker in tensile strength. Both will work for lures.  All things being equal (price, availability), regular 304 is better for lure making unless you are doing some welding in your lure builds. You might as well get the extra 5%.

Low carbon wires are used for welding. 304L will be more corrosion resistant when welded, which is of no benefit in typical lure making. Unless the weld joint itself is annealed (aka heating the crap out of it and cooling slowly), welded 304 will corrode at the weld much faster than 304L. The L wire is used to skip having to anneal the weld to save time and money.

[UKandy]

26 minutes ago, JD_mudbug said:

The Malin stainless safety wire is 304 annealed. The link I gave above for Wire Specialties is also 304 annealed. Malin color codes their canisters for different safety/locking wire types. Blue is 304 annealed stainless. I believe other major manufacturers have followed Malin's lead in color coding. Always check the company's website for specs to be sure, but blue canister safety/locking wire is most likely going to be 304 annealed from a major wire manufacturer.

304L (L= extra low carbon) is a bit weaker than 304, roughly 5% weaker in tensile strength. Both will work for lures.  All things being equal (price, availability), regular 304 is better for lure making unless you are doing some welding in your lure builds. You might as well get the extra 5%.

Low carbon wires are used for welding. 304L will be more corrosion resistant when welded, which is of no benefit in typical lure making. Unless the weld joint itself is annealed (aka heating the crap out of it and cooling slowly), welded 304 will corrode at the weld much faster than 304L. The L wire is used to skip having to anneal the weld to save time and money.

 thanks for the explanation it's appreciated.

Andy.

[exx1976]

3 hours ago, JD_mudbug said:

is annealed (aka heating the crap out of it and cooling slowly), 

For completeness' sake, this is inaccurate.  Annealing does not require slow cooling.  Further, "heating the crap out of it" is non-specific, whereby annealing actually DOES require specific  temps that vary by material.  Annealing 304 requires a temp of 1900-2050 degrees F for 60 minutes per inch of thickness.

Annealing brass, on the other hand, requires much lower temperatures, for much less time.

In either case, a water quench is normally used after the heating in the interest of time.

Edited December 17, 2020 by exx1976

[Vodkaman]

The problem is that all most of us know about annealing is what we learned in metalwork class in school, and that was all about regular mild steel. The fact is that annealing is different for every metal and alloy, including stainless in its various forms. It is a very complex subject.

I could throw out some BIG words like martensitic, austenitic and more. The message is that a little research has to be done for every application of every alloy.

Dave

[JD_mudbug]

My purpose  in explaining 304 v 304L was merely to show the basic difference as it applies to lure building. I did not want to see a lure builder pay more or even the same for 304L, when its performance is a bit less than 304 in lure building.  I was not trying to give a tutorial on welding let alone annealing a weld. Hence, 'the heating the crap out of it' non-technical term. I guess I should have put that in my post. My apologies.

Dave, you are correct. Anyone doing welding should do their own research and not attempt to learn skills like that on a lure building forum. I didn't even have metal shop in school, just wood shop. But fortunately, unlike my father, I did not have to walk uphill both ways to school.

To fully correct my post, 304L is weaker than 304 by 6.67% by minimum tensile strength  (70 ksi / 75 ksi = .9333),  weaker by 5.56%  by ultimate tensile strength (85 ksi / 90 ksi = .9444),  weaker by 16.67% by minimum yield strength ( min  25 ksi / 30 ksi = .8333),  and  weaker by 16.67% on 0.2% yield strength (35 ksi / 42 ksi = .8333).   Judge for yourself which metric is most applicable to lure building. By whatever metric you chose, 304L is at least more than 5% weaker than 304.

  I like big words like austenitic but i have not been to Texas yet. As for martensitic ...

 

[exx1976]

I will fully admit to have to look up the spec for annealing 304.  The only metal I have firsthand knowledge of annealing is of brass; more specifically, rifle cartridge cases.  I shot competitive long range rifle on the national level for a few years, and annealing helped to control but one more of the teeny tiny variables during the process.

Edited December 18, 2020 by exx1976

[Travis]

Amazing anyone has ever made a lure with the difficulty..........

Edited December 18, 2020 by Travis

[Vodkaman]

Yes, it is just the commonest SS wire, but questions were asked and I answered them. It has been rather a silly thread at times, but that is what happens when you wander off the main street into my world.

Still, it hasn't been all bad. We are now all experts on annealing and work hardening of 304, and we have a new idea for imparting a little extra hardness into the eye bend. Surely it doesn't get better than that

Dave

Edited December 18, 2020 by Vodkaman

[UKandy]

3 minutes ago, Vodkaman said:

Yes, it is just the commonest SS wire, but questions were asked and I answered them. It has been rather a silly thread at times, but that is what happens when you wander off the main road into my world.

Still, it hasn't been all bad. We are now all experts on annealing and work hardening of 304, and we have a new idea for imparting a little extra hardness into the eye bend. Surely it doesn't get better than that

Dave

Andy.

[Big Epp]

I've used hardened 316 wire and not hardened Malins 304 wire.  The harder 316 wire I have is .032" and the 304 I have in .041" and .062."  With the lock wire I can use a nail and my drill to twist up the screw eyes.  When twisted up they are very, very stiff.  I have no doubts about using them on fish over and over again.  The harder 316 stuff I can't twist up with my drill, it just snaps off.  I have to bend it by hand.  I've caught a bunch of bass with it and have no concerns using it with smaller fish (say 10lbs or less?).  I like using the stiffer stuff for wire forms, as it holds its shape better outside the lure.  Once in the lure I can't tell a difference between which wire I used.

[mark poulson]

Clearly there are a lot of wire choices available.

I just posted one that works for me, is readily available, and not expensive.

Give this wire a try, and yo might not have to go to college to figure out which wire will work and why;

https://www.lurepartsonline.com/Looped-End-Wire-Shafts

[Vodkaman]

Mark - I did metallurgy as part of my aeronautical college course. I hated every minute

Dave

[mark poulson]

6 minutes ago, Vodkaman said:

Mark - I did metallurgy as part of my aeronautical college course. I hated every minute

Dave

Better you than me. ;O)

[Travis]

55 minutes ago, Vodkaman said:

Mark - I did metallurgy as part of my aeronautical college course. I hated every minute

Dave

I spent a little less than a year working in a lab at a metal and alloy plant while my wife was finishing up her masters wasn't a bad experience at all.  My only knock was how dirty a job it was and that every morning when walking out to the car would have the finest "glitter" coating me.  My wife used to joke I had been at strip club all night.

Edited December 20, 2020 by Travis

[Vodkaman]

19 minutes ago, Travis said:

I spent a little less than a year working in a lab at a metal and alloy plant while my wife was finishing up her masters wasn't a bad experience at all.  My only knock was how dirty a job it was and that every morning when walking out to the car would have the finest "glitter" coating me.  My wife used to joke I had been at strip club all night.

Oh wow!

As a college lab, there was not the same volume of polishing going on for the glitter effect. I really struggled to take in the information though. But that is college life, they just keep shoveling new stuff in there day in day out.

The one lab I hated more was the steam lab. I am sure they deliberately arranged for the pressure release valve to kick in half way through the lesson. One of the students was a steam guy and I am sure he was in on the joke because he would never flinch while the rest of us would dive for cover

Dave