Figured out thru wire!

[exx1976]

It was simultaneously harder, and easier, than I thought it would be.

 

[eastman03]

Nice looks good!  What are you planning on filing the slot with?  That seems to be my most time consuming part.  I "piping bag" epoxy into the slot, place the wire in, then use a stick to get epoxy on the side walls, then jam a piece of thin wood into the slot.  Saves on filling the entire slot up with epoxy.  If there are any gaps after (which there probably will be), i use bondo (or you could try the super glue/baking powder trick).  

[Vodkaman]

My solution was a Bondo style filler. It is fast curing and sands well.

I prefer my slot down the back of the lure rather than the belly, this makes the slot filler less significant as it cannot be ripped out.

Dave

[eastman03]

Yea Vodkaman, my most recent lures that I just finished gluing up have the slot down the back.  I leaves me more room as well for other things like rattles or weight.  Sanding the slot smooth down the back helps without the hook hangers sticking down as well.   I think both ways work though overall.

I really like bondo too.  Liquid superglue is expensive and i have to order it online.  Bondo is cheap and available.  Once I apply the bondo, i wait like 5 minutes or so till it is still in the curing stage, then using a sharp knife, I can easily remove most of the excess.  I carves off like butter.  Then once cured (only about another 5 min), you can sand it smooth. That saves me a lot of sanding. 

[exx1976]

Yeah, I've not yet decided on if I'll do the slot down the back or the belly.  That was just a quick "proof of concept" I whipped up.  Sanding was my first thought as well.  However, having the slot down the belly seems much easier to me, in theory, since if it were down the back I would still need to drill holes - this time, all the way through the bait from top to bottom, to stick the hook hangers out of - and now we're back to getting the holes exactly in the center, and more drill press work, and....  Using a belly slot prevents that.  Additionally, using a belly slot allows me to insert the ballast right on top of the weight, and epoxy all of it in at once.  So, I think I'm leaning belly slot. 

I'm planning to fill the slot completely with epoxy.  That seems like it would be the easiest since I can just shape it to exactly what I want it to be while filling, and not have to worry about (much) sanding after the fact. I am aware of the superglue/baking soda trick, that's how I've been covering my existing ballast.  I would shy away from bondo or other types of vinyl body filler, as they shrink due to the type of material they are.  IMO, having shrinking filler in a thru-wire slot would not produce the professional, high-quality product that is my goal.

However, to deal with the inevitability of the sanding, I also added a 1" belt sander to my workshop to handle those duties.

Also, the lip will not be in the bait when the slot is filled.  I plan to use a couple pieces of painters tape to block off the slot.  I like my baits to have that more "professional look" of a clean lip, rather than some trapezoidal shape from masking tape, so I insert the lips after I've already painted the bait.  That way, I don't have to worry about taping it up, and removing the tape, and all that nonsense.  I may revisit this as I continue to refine this new process, we'll see.  I'll keep you guys posted.

[eastman03]

Sounds good!  Yea, the top slot does suck for that reason.  Drilling holes through to still allow the hook hangers to go through is a bit of an extra step.  Let me know how the epoxying of the slot goes?  I had trouble just using epoxy as it constantly ran out and ended up being a big mess, and I still had to fill the slot a bit more.  What kind of epoxy are you using for that purpose?

I have some lead sheets from old underground powerline (very old) that works well for ballast.  I can cut it and it fits into the slot just right.  That was a good find at work.  

The 1" belt sander would be super handy.  I should look into getting one of those for sure!  

One other thing with installing the lip last.  For a musky bait like that, it will probably take some abuse.  I would recommend "pinning" it into the lure with something.  Not many adhesives adhere well to polycarbonate.  Having the lip pinned into the lure with some wire or small screws helps it take the abuse.  On second look, what is that lip material made of?  

Anyway, looks good! Keep up informed of the progress.

[exx1976]

Good eye. The lip is g10, and it's not coming out. Additionally, this lure is designed for shallow work, not bottom dragging. It oy runs 24" on the deep side when twitching. Straight retrieve you can maybe get it to 3 feet. It's designed for working the top of weed flats. 

As for the epoxy "running out"..  I'll let you know how I solve that. I'm thinking more painters tape, but we'll see. Hoping to mess with it later tonight. Planning to mix some sawdust into the epoxy to thicken it into more of a paste, too, which should help lessen the issues. 

[Vodkaman]

Yes, epoxy for belly slots, Bondo is not strong enough, more of a hold in place thing.

I use a flap wheel in the drill press for the final sanding process. New wheels are not so nice to use, but once they are worn in they are great for lures.

Through drilling for a distance of 2" is very easy and is 100% success rate using the spiked plate method.

Using the back slot method, the harness does not literally need to be one piece. If I was to build another back slot lure, I would twist the drop eyes separate with a loop at each end. Inserting the drop eye from the bottom, the back harness can be threaded through the small loop. This allows for a smaller diameter drop hole. This is just as secure as a one piece through harness.

Dave

[exx1976]

2 hours ago, Vodkaman said:

Yes, epoxy for belly slots, Bondo is not strong enough, more of a hold in place thing.

I use a flap wheel in the drill press for the final sanding process. New wheels are not so nice to use, but once they are worn in they are great for lures.

Through drilling for a distance of 2" is very easy and is 100% success rate using the spiked plate method.

Using the back slot method, the harness does not literally need to be one piece. If I was to build another back slot lure, I would twist the drop eyes separate with a loop at each end. Inserting the drop eye from the bottom, the back harness can be threaded through the small loop. This allows for a smaller diameter drop hole. This is just as secure as a one piece through harness.

Dave

Yes, I've seen numerous videos of what you describe for the belly hangers used on large (fat) crankbaits that use a drill-thru design instead of a slot.

Unless I run into some serious issues, I'm pretty settled on the belly slot - at least for this lure.  The belly is nearly completely flat, save for the slight upturn at the nose.  Filling the back with epoxy would have to be multiple pours due to the contour - and that is not a time-save process.  Additionally, doing it from the belly side allows me to seal the wire and the ballast in one fell swoop.  If I did the back, I'd have to seal the belly and the back both anyway, and they can't be done at the same time, so.......  That would be much, much slower - at least for this bait.

I'll let you guys know how I get on.  I made a mold to pour my ballast, so I still need to pour up a bunch, and I need to finish my wire jig.  Probably won't get to epoxy until tomorrow night unless I suddenly find a whole bunch more motivation to continue tonight.  The way it's looking, by the time I get some dinner and finish this jig, it'll be pretty late already.  I'll pour lead and epoxy tomorrow night.

[Big Epp]

Looks great!  I had never thought of putting the wire harness in the back.  Clever idea!

[exx1976]

I figured I should update my thread instead of the other one...   Here's my new through wire, and the jig I made that made it. The attachment points look MUCH better than that hand-bent nonsense I had before. 

 

[Outlaw4]

Use epoxy filler. It thickens up specifically to do what you are hoping for and is really strong. Very common in the marine industry. If you look at like the West system 400 line (i use 404) there are multiple densities. There are also many other manufacturers that do the same thing.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Outlaw4
update

[exx1976]

Oye.  This is a mess.

I thickened the epoxy with sawdust, since that's all I had handy.  Yikes.

 

I did find some epoxy putty online that's made for boat repair, and the SG is low enough that it floats.  It's still heaver than the wood I'm putting it into, but it's light enough that I won't have to worry about it adding too much ballast and sinking my lures.  I ordered some of that to try.  I also ordered some West 404.

 

I'll keep you guys updated, but if this doesn't get easier, I question whether I will continue with this nonsense.  I now understand why most builders don't bother with this (unless they are building with balsa).

[Vodkaman]

There is a technique were you cover the epoxy application with kitchen wrap. This would drastically reduce your clean-up operation.

Dave

[exx1976]

7 minutes ago, Vodkaman said:

There is a technique were you cover the epoxy application with kitchen wrap. This would drastically reduce your clean-up operation.

Dave

I'm far less worried about the cleanup, and far more concerned with actually getting the nonsense into the slot.  A belt sander will make VERY light work of any epoxy that is leftover.

A belt sander will not, however, fill in the gaps that I couldn't cram the epoxy down into with a popsicle stick.

I either need much thicker epoxy (putty) that I can force down in there, or, I need MUCH thinner epoxy that I can pour down in there (something like some of the west systems stuff).

I'm not sure which.  I'm also not sure I'm going to continue this build methodology unless I'm able to find an easier way to fill these stupid slots.  LOL

Edited January 29, 2021 by exx1976

[Big Epp]

I really like @eastman03s idea of epoxying in a wood shim. Have you tried that?  It might allow you to force epoxy down into the whole slot and reduce the possibility of voids in the finished epoxy.  If you use a table saw or something to cut the slot you'll know how thick to make the shims and could just rip a bunch of them before making a batch of lures.  If/when I try some muskie lures I think I'll try this.

Or... you could pour in a thin epoxy first, allowing it to flow into all the gaps and spaces around your wire harness and then follow it up (after it cures) with a thicker epoxy filler.  Then there would be at least a solid layer of epoxy all around the harness.

And I agree, the hook hangers and line tie look very uniform and professional with the jig you made, clever!

[exx1976]

15 minutes ago, Big Epp said:

I really like @eastman03s idea of epoxying in a wood shim. Have you tried that?  It might allow you to force epoxy down into the whole slot and reduce the possibility of voids in the finished epoxy.  If you use a table saw or something to cut the slot you'll know how thick to make the shims and could just rip a bunch of them before making a batch of lures.  If/when I try some muskie lures I think I'll try this.

Or... you could pour in a thin epoxy first, allowing it to flow into all the gaps and spaces around your wire harness and then follow it up (after it cures) with a thicker epoxy filler.  Then there would be at least a solid layer of epoxy all around the harness.

And I agree, the hook hangers and line tie look very uniform and professional with the jig you made, clever!

Yeah, I've considered the thinner epoxy. I don't have any here, but I know west makes some that flows near like water, perhaps like hot maple syrup, so that's a thought. I've also considered the wood shims, but haven't tried them yet. The photos you see were my first attempt at this at all, so.. 

 

My slot ls 1/16", so I'd probably just resaw some veneers from scrap pieces on the band saw if I went that route - and I'm leaning that way. As troublesome as it would be to get all the pieces the correct length between the ballast and hangers and whatnot, it would also mean the least amount of epoxy, which should help ensure an even kick and not having to wait 2-3 days in between operations. The thicker epoxy gets, the longer it takes to cure the whole way down. Plus, as you mention, voids are a concern. I fully expect these two to be compromised in some way, and am treating them as a learning experience. 

The jig was actually pretty easy to make, took about an hour or so. I would recommend using aluminum instead of plywood though. I've already ovaled one of the holes from the tension of the wire pulling on the locator pins. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by exx1976

[eastman03]

The wood shim is the way to go.  I spent a few years messing with trying to fill the entire slot up with epoxy and it sucks. Sanding it out works, but it is hard not to nick the hook hangers   Thru wire gets easier like anything you do multiple times.  Don't settle.  I like your passion for making a quality lure! To me that means through wire! 

Remember- you don't want to be remembered for this= (this is a 120$ Canadian headlock lure).  I don't want to name names, but there ya go.  Their lures work great and catch fish!  And I love their epoxy finish and aluminum lip.  But that's about where it ends.  I fear I paid for a name, not a quality product. 

 

[exx1976]

1 hour ago, eastman03 said:

The wood shim is the way to go.  I spent a few years messing with trying to fill the entire slot up with epoxy and it sucks. Sanding it out works, but it is hard not to nick the hook hangers   Thru wire gets easier like anything you do multiple times.  Don't settle.  I like your passion for making a quality lure! To me that means through wire! 

Remember- you don't want to be remembered for this= (this is a 120$ Canadian headlock lure).  I don't want to name names, but there ya go.  Their lures work great and catch fish!  And I love their epoxy finish and aluminum lip.  But that's about where it ends.  I fear I paid for a name, not a quality product. 

 

That was a headlock? Yeah..  They were mentioned by someone else in another thread as well..  The fact that there are so many of these "custom" makers that are getting North of $100 for screw eye lures with "okay(ish)" paint jobs is absurd. My original plan was somewhere in the $60 range for my lure with screw eyes. I just can't see my way to North of $100 unless you actually bring something of value to the table. And for how big of a PITA thru wire is, it's definitely of value. Lol

Edited January 29, 2021 by exx1976

[Hillbilly voodoo]

5 hours ago, exx1976 said:

That was a headlock? Yeah..  They were mentioned by someone else in another thread as well..  The fact that there are so many of these "custom" makers that are getting North of $100 for screw eye lures with "okay(ish)" paint jobs is absurd. My original plan was somewhere in the $60 range for my lure with screw eyes. I just can't see my way to North of $100 unless you actually bring something of value to the table. And for how big of a PITA thru wire is, it's definitely of value. Lol

There is a lot more to a lure than through wire and a fancy paint job. The reason the baits you are talking about are selling is because they have developed a reputation as proven fish catchers. Often they brought forward some form of innovation that caused them to stand out and it’s often in the action department 

Just something to consider  

[exx1976]

1 minute ago, Hillbilly voodoo said:

There is a lot more to a lure than through wire and a fancy paint job. The reason the baits you are talking about are selling is because they have developed a reputation as proven fish catchers. Often they brought forward some form of innovation that caused them to stand out and it’s often in the action department 

Just something to consider  

I'm well aware. But a solid action doesn't excuse the photo shared above. Nor does it excuse crappy paint jobs, or shoddy epoxy, or paint that flakes off after 10 casts, nor does it excuse hook rash so bad the lure takes on water. 

You know how I know that? Because if a cool action excused any of the aforementioned trespasses, I would still be buying lures instead of giving myself dain bramage trying to make them. 

[Hillbilly voodoo]

41 minutes ago, exx1976 said:

I'm well aware. But a solid action doesn't excuse the photo shared above. Nor does it excuse crappy paint jobs, or shoddy epoxy, or paint that flakes off after 10 casts, nor does it excuse hook rash so bad the lure takes on water. 

You know how I know that? Because if a cool action excused any of the aforementioned trespasses, I would still be buying lures instead of giving myself dain bramage trying to make them. 

I get what you are saying and personally over build my lures as do most small builders

but in most cases if you put the well known lure next to an unknown of better quality and similar design the known will out sell

There is a lot of builders on this forum alone who can easily build an upgraded copy of an existing lure  

As for filling your the slot for through wire epoxy mixed with fine sawdust works well. First use just epoxy to fill the bottom of the slot and let it dry. Masking tape the edges of the slot so you can be messing and not care. Push the sawdust/epoxy mix in with a small wedge. Finally put on a good layer till fill the final gap. Smooth it off with your finger and remove the tape. Set the bait in a rack to keep it level 

MDF sawdust or similar fine dust is key

Wood shims like Eastman shows work well I just hate cutting shims

[exx1976]

14 hours ago, Hillbilly voodoo said:

I get what you are saying and personally over build my lures as do most small builders

but in most cases if you put the well known lure next to an unknown of better quality and similar design the known will out sell

There is a lot of builders on this forum alone who can easily build an upgraded copy of an existing lure  

As for filling your the slot for through wire epoxy mixed with fine sawdust works well. First use just epoxy to fill the bottom of the slot and let it dry. Masking tape the edges of the slot so you can be messing and not care. Push the sawdust/epoxy mix in with a small wedge. Finally put on a good layer till fill the final gap. Smooth it off with your finger and remove the tape. Set the bait in a rack to keep it level 

MDF sawdust or similar fine dust is key

Wood shims like Eastman shows work well I just hate cutting shims

Yes, the "sawdust" I used was just stuff I picked up off my router table, it was clearly not the correct choice (as my mess of in the photo so gloriously illustrates. )   I hate cutting MDF, so I probably won't ever had any of that sawdust available.  LOL

All excellent advice about how to deal with the slot, I'll let you know how it works out.

As for what outsells what - I'm counting on the well-known lure outselling me, the little guy.  I plan to only make, at most, perhaps 5-600 baits per year, so if I had demand that was even twice that, I wouldn't be close to keeping up.  My endeavor is more about having a hobby that gives me something to do all winter long, and at the end of the winter not having 500 lures in my basement or in my boat (and summarily, the next winter, not having 1000, then 1500, etc).  I'm not looking to turn this into a full-time gig since I've already deduced it's simply not profitable enough to displace my day job.

I do need to construct a rack of some sort to hold the baits if I'm going to begin building thru-wire in any sort of quantity (more than 2 at a time).  One of the critical things I need to figure out with said rack is how to keep from epoxying the lures TO the rack, because in the photo above?  You can bet that I most certainly epoxied them to that cardboard box. 

As for design similarities..  At some point, every lure is a similar design to something else.  My INITIAL goal when I started this was "to replace all the lures in my boat with lures made by me".  I like the way some of those lures function, so I didn't want to replace, for illustrations sake, a Hellhound with a deep diving lure.  I need lures that behave, and cover water, similar to the lures I'm going to displace from my own collection.  This relatively shallow-swimming minnow bait was my first choice.  Is it unique?  Is it something the fishing world has never seen before?  Perhaps not at first glance, until you realize the lip is "the wrong color - what is that?".  It does impart a different, and I believe, better, action than what you see in "similar lures".

Once I've cut my teeth, so to speak, making things that are similar to something else, my thought is that I'll have enough of the mechanics of lure building under my belt (cutting, shaping, sanding, sealing, doing through-wire, painting, epoxying, etc) that creating something more unique will be easier.  It's all about controlling the variables - but that will be a project for next winter.  This winter, I still need to nail this one down, and hopefully, get a few dozen or a hundred lures into the hands of fishermen to enjoy this coming season to begin to build a name for myself.  That way, when I introduce the crazy thing next year, people will at least already know who I am.

Edited January 30, 2021 by exx1976

[Hillbilly voodoo]

If you want fine sawdust check out your local cabinetry shops and other wood working shops. Most would gladly give you as much sawdust as you need for free

Nothing wrong with building of another design many do but don’t hesitate to just build your own. If I can throw together my own designs anyone can. It’s a matter of coming up with a design, testing it, and adjusting till you have it right.

There is a ton of knowledgeable people on this form that have no issues helping with advice regarding adjustments to reach a desired action. 

A rack doesn’t need to be handy. Along time ago I would use a block of wood with a slot cut in it. I have even used two cans of beer to hold lures lol

[exx1976]

Update:  Belt sanders with 100 or 120 grit belts at 3300RPM eat wood.  And wire hangers.  No matter; the epoxy on those two baits was an absolute disaster.

The 404 showed up today.  I mixed some up to somewhere between peanut butter and frosting consistency, and began by jamming it into the slot with a popsicle stick.  This was mildly successful, but not fully.  I ended up shoving it in with a thin piece of G10 and my gloved fingers.  Prior to doing so, I taped up both sides of the slot, then cut out around the ballast.

The results?  Well, it's not fully set yet, but it was set enough that I peeled the tape off the sides of the test bait, and it looks marvelous.  Not at all fast, but, speed is not *necessarily* my goal.  I'm sure my time will improve with repeated application, however.

Also came up with a way to design a jig to cut the slot.  Have the idea all worked out, started on it a bit this evening, then decided it's already been a long day in the shop so I took a break to update you guys and enjoy an evening bourbon.

Tomorrow that epoxy/404 should be set up, so I'll come back and update further.  I'll also hopefully get to work on that jig.  

Thanks for the continued ideas and motivation to me, you guys have been a tremendous help in this process.