bigborebob Posted February 18, 2021 Report Share Posted February 18, 2021 Hello, New to posting on this forum, but research threads here often for great info. I've been building large wooden trolling baits for a some time & understand the entry level basics on buoyancy, body shape, thru[wire vs screw eyes, lip angle / thickness & tow line location. My question regards baits with a lip tow line connection - how to determine layout for lip slot location & what effect is there by moving the location one way or another? Using a sketch, I locate the lip slot by intersecting the desired angle to a certain distance from bait nose tip, ie 1-1/2" from nose tip. The lip slot layout always lays on top of this line for consistency. Length of slot is determined by bait OAL. Is there a general "rule of thumb" how far back to intersect the lip slot with bait C/L & does anyone know the effects on moving the slot location closer / further from nose tip? Hopefully I've explained my question & apologize if this has been answered previously. Of course I could build lots of prototypes & swim them, but trying to save a few tress - ha! Thanks in advance 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azsouth Posted February 18, 2021 Report Share Posted February 18, 2021 Not an easy question to answer, it will hinge on a few things just to start. 1. action you want to produce 2. single piece or jointed 3. size and weight of bait 4. buoyancy 5. depth you want to achieve. with the above info you can pick the style of lip and general lip placement. pictures with size and weight would allow a lot of insight and get more people to chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly voodoo Posted February 18, 2021 Report Share Posted February 18, 2021 I honestly have not messed around with lip slot depth and location much. When I cut my lip slot it’s mostly thinking about how it will effect the angle the lure will float, how it will impact my hardware, and have used deeper lip slots to create moderate divers so I can keep the line tie on the body vs in the lip. The depth of the slot can also effect the wiggle. The impact on the wiggle is mostly with wider lips Theses are the small things I consider and noticed with lip slot location/depth. This is one area I have not invested much effort in though and focused on the other factors that impact action instead Likely someone who has tested different things regarding your question will chime in with something more in-depth findings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted February 19, 2021 Report Share Posted February 19, 2021 For me, position is primarily a structural thing; a deep enough slot for a solid connection and enough body behind/above the slot for support. Waggle is a force x distance or lever thing, so the further away from the COG then the more waggle you get. If you simply move the lip rearwards on the next prototype, you will likely have a different result or even fail, because the geometry to the tow eye has changed and disturbed the balance. You may have to experiment to find the new eye position. Be mentally prepared to make a few prototypes. Make one adjustment at a time and make notes. Always test with hooks and hardware fitted. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Epp Posted February 19, 2021 Report Share Posted February 19, 2021 Thanks for posting, and great question! I'm just getting more into lipped baits, so I'm curious as to what ideas come up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigborebob Posted February 19, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2021 To answer az south 1) looking for low frequency action with lots of side to side wiggle, preferably with pivot point just behind eye location. 2,3) single body x 8" length x 110g 4) buoyancy is floating with nose slightly angled down < 5 degrees 5) depth, unsure if we'll run long or short line with this bait I never gave thought to lip slot location affecting the buoyancy - thanks To help all understand, photo attached showing 22 & 45 degree unfinished baits. I believe this is permitted via rules? 8" bait with proven results at 45 degree + slot depth 0.875" + bottom of slot line intersects bait C/L 1-3/8" from nose tip. 8" bait at 22 degree + same depth + same intersection. The 22 degree slot at this location has lip closer to bait C/L vs 45 degree slot which raises the tow point, unless tow point extends far in front of nose. So, I was wondering if there was a "rule of thumb" regarding effects of moving the slot intersection further from nose which also lowers the lip. But deep down, I know there is no easy solution as vodkaman points out - make 1 change, take notes, build another, repeat...ha Keeping the "wiggle" pivot point just behind the bait's eye with low frequency & lots of side to side movement is our desire on this bait. Unsure if moving the slot location will move this pivot point closer/ further from nose. We thought designing flies & casting methods to lure muskies on large open water bodies was difficult, but this hard bait project is keeping me awake at night & quite interesting. Thanks in advance & I hope this helps another angler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azsouth Posted February 19, 2021 Report Share Posted February 19, 2021 My first pick would be a coffin bill, then triangle with 1/4" round points, Larger baits like that you could use 1/8 " Lexan or polycarbonate but it might not have the durability or just go with 3/16-1/4". Don't make the mistake of thinking that all plexiglass is the same!! Lexan and polycarbonate are at the higher end of the realm and better properties when dealing with Mother nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigborebob Posted February 19, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2021 AZ, We plan a test swim this weekend with the 22 degree baits, weather permitting. Our current lip shapes are round & elliptical with various lengths, widths, thickness & tow point locations. Currently all our lips are 0.125" or 0.175" Lexan. We have some success with this bait in 8" & 10" at 45 degree lips but thinking the 22 degree will give us a bit more depth, maybe down to 20' - 25' with short lines. Currently, all of our bodies have the same shape with some concavity - 0.090" each side x 2" in length - in the eye location. So, I'm wondering if this concavity affects wiggle pivot point or is it lip slot location? When we test swim the 45 degree baits next to our boat, the baits show an "X" pattern with wiggle pivot point just behind the eyes. That's where we like it. I'll keep making one change at a time looking for this answer, just hoping at 64 years of age I live long enough - ha! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigborebob Posted February 19, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2021 On 2/18/2021 at 5:09 PM, Hillbilly voodoo said: I honestly have not messed around with lip slot depth and location much. When I cut my lip slot it’s mostly thinking about how it will effect the angle the lure will float, how it will impact my hardware, and have used deeper lip slots to create moderate divers so I can keep the line tie on the body vs in the lip. The depth of the slot can also effect the wiggle. The impact on the wiggle is mostly with wider lips Theses are the small things I consider and noticed with lip slot location/depth. This is one area I have not invested much effort in though and focused on the other factors that impact action instead Likely someone who has tested different things regarding your question will chime in with something more in-depth findings Curious to your choice on keeping tow point on the body vs lip? Do you swim large baits similar to muskie trolling baits? The bait makers in our area, that I'm aware of, choose lip tow points, just asking because I've never thought about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly voodoo Posted February 19, 2021 Report Share Posted February 19, 2021 I think you are right on track with testing the different styles you should be happy with the 22 degree angle if I understand your goal correctly. A wider lip keeping the tie point close to the wide point on an oval style lip or wide coffin would be my choice personally I would move the lip slot on the lure on the left in you pic towards the belly so it kind of lines up to the center of the eye I am a big fan of testing/prototyping because it is the only way to truly get what you are looking for in my opinion Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly voodoo Posted February 19, 2021 Report Share Posted February 19, 2021 4 minutes ago, bigborebob said: Curious to your choice on keeping tow point on the body vs lip? Do you swim large baits similar to muskie trolling baits? The bait makers in our area, that I'm aware of, choose lip tow points, just asking because I've never thought about it... I build mostly for pike and lake trout as my main goals. I build lots of lures that would qualify as smaller musky lures. most are 5-7inch Keeping the tie point in the body is less likely to fail and it creates some simplicity to the build. At least this is how I feel about it. But a in lip tie point built right should not fail either It could be I just like the design lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted February 20, 2021 Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 For a line tie on the lip, many guys start with the tie point 45-50 % of the distance between the nose and the end of the lip. From there, if you move the tie toward the nose, you will get a harder, wider action. But go too far and the lure will blow out or circle in the water. If you have a similar commercial bait, you can often shorten the test-retest cycle by starting at the same point. The lip angle and placement of the ballast also affect the bait’s action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azsouth Posted February 20, 2021 Report Share Posted February 20, 2021 I ( should ) always bring multiple lips to test, funny I have thought on previous builds that I had the bill dialed in....and not be dialed in and should of brought more styles of lips. A big part of this is understanding what effect each bill has on the bait Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
