Getting crank baits to hunt

[RPM]

I've been building Custom handcrafted crankbaits for certain conditions since 2011, I'm in Southern Indiana and fish alot of the Tenn River chain lakes, & River Systems. From my studies the Carolina crankbait guys are target oriented. Not so much on speed or action all though speed & action is very prevelant when it comes to crankbaits there. They also want crankbaits to HIT a target, ie: Stump, rock pile boulder, etc. Hunting Crankbaits will not perform well in these conditions. I have a certain crankbait that hunts like crazy but is no good at target fishing, because it can swim with such deflection it's impossible to hit a taget even with the best of cast's. but in open water it's deadly.

Thanks Rich

Edited April 24, 2021 by RPM

[Vodkaman]

A point indirectly brought up by @Travis and for that matter, many times in other threads; what is the definition of hunting, when is a hunter not a hunter?

Many will argue that a lure that rhythmically and regularly steps from side to side a few inches cannot be defined as a hunter, and only erratic, random stepping of a larger amplitude can truly be defined as a hunter.

The fact is that ‘hunting’ is a range of movement that is dependent on velocity. How erratic the hunt, is determined by the stability of the lure design. So, we have a combination of two ranges; speed and stability.

The speed range starts with an occasional step from line, perhaps every 4 or 5 waggle cycles. As the speed increases, we extend further into the hunting range and the lure steps every 2 – 3 cycles. As the lure reaches the far end of the hunting range, either the lure blows out or the lure enters porpoise or pitch action mode.

The stability is a function or combination of tow eye location and COG location. If the design is closer to instability then the hunting effect will be more dramatic with a wider amplitude. If a lure is very unstable, it will blow out at the first hint of a hunting step.

And so, you cannot point to a lure and say ‘this is a hunter and that is not’ because there is no defining ‘line’. If a lure steps out from its retrieval line then it is hunting.

Dave

[Carbite]

2 hours ago, Vodkaman said:

The speed range starts with an occasional step from line, perhaps every 4 or 5 waggle cycles. As the speed increases, we extend further into the hunting range and the lure steps every 2 – 3 cycles. As the lure reaches the far end of the hunting range, either the lure blows out or the lure enters porpoise or pitch action mode.

Dave

Hot damn if these weren't industry secrets, there'd be a very interesting Veritasium video on it.

To add, and Rapala advises this with their designed-to-hunt Scatter Rap series, small tugs or variations in retrieval speed can cause instabilities at speeds below when they normally occur.

I know the answer is probably "Yes, get gud," but can you design any crankbait, deep or shallow, tight or wide, to hunt?  Especially deep divers seem to already have constraints on their construction that would make it hard.

[Vodkaman]

I am sure some companies could build hunters, but it is a known fact that many of the famous hunter baits were build accidents. You might have to buy a dozen baits to get a couple that hunt as you want. There were discussions here on TU if you search back to the beginning.

When I joined TU in 2007, no one knew what caused a lure to waggle. If you search for the word vortex, you will not find anything before 2007 in the context of lure movement. Yes, you might call these industry secrets but you would be wrong, people back then did not know the secrets of what made the lures do what they did, they just did!

If a company did know the engineering behind the movement then they kept it very quiet.

Dave

[Vodkaman]

19 minutes ago, Carbite said:

Can you design any crankbait, deep or shallow, tight or wide, to hunt?  Especially deep divers seem to already have constraints on their construction that would make it hard.

Unfortunately, at least using my hunting theory, the hunt is limited to shallow swimmers. I do not know what the depth limit is because none of the waters that I fish are deeper than 4'.

Dave

[Hillbilly voodoo]

3 minutes ago, Vodkaman said:

Unfortunately, at least using my hunting theory, the hunt is limited to shallow swimmers. I do not know what the depth limit is because none of the waters that I fish are deeper than 4'.

Dave

Dave 

moderate diver at about 8feet can definitely be made to hunt 

[Carbite]

27 minutes ago, Vodkaman said:

When I joined TU in 2007, no one knew what caused a lure to waggle. If you search for the word vortex, you will not find anything before 2007 in the context of lure movement. Yes, you might call these industry secrets but you would be wrong, people back then did not know the secrets of what made the lures do what they did, they just did!

Thanks for the history, I'm new on the scene. (obviously)  I mostly meant the math behind lure behavior as an industry secret.  I feel certain that at least a few companies have equations and specially-designed modelling software that they keep to themselves.

Is the saddle bill a true solution to the hunting problem?  It seems to work by catching more water on the outside of the wobble, emphasizing instabilities.

[Travis]

5 hours ago, Vodkaman said:

A point indirectly brought up by @Travis and for that matter, many times in other threads; what is the definition of hunting, when is a hunter not a hunter?

Many will argue that a lure that rhythmically and regularly steps from side to side a few inches cannot be defined as a hunter, and only erratic, random stepping of a larger amplitude can truly be defined as a hunter.

The fact is that ‘hunting’ is a range of movement that is dependent on velocity. How erratic the hunt, is determined by the stability of the lure design. So, we have a combination of two ranges; speed and stability.

Lets be very clear...their is nothing to argue about as the hunting lure action was defined as a certain action way before many on the site made lures. 

Many simply have incorporated glide bait and swimbait action/concepts into cranks.  Still effective and fish catchers.  I just won't pass them off as hunting baits.

[Vodkaman]

3 hours ago, Travis said:

Many simply have incorporated glide bait and swimbait action/concepts into cranks.  Still effective and fish catchers.  I just won't pass them off as hunting baits.

Agreed, hunting is a very different thing.

Dave

[Outlaw4]

On 4/25/2021 at 8:49 AM, Hillbilly voodoo said:

Dave 

moderate diver at about 8feet can definitely be made to hunt 

a good example of a deep diver "hunter" is a reef runner 800. a lot of people dont like as they are "unstable" and "hard to tune". they are a walleye trolling staple for me

[azsouth]

Pictures are up in the gallery for anyone who is interested in modifying your crank baits to hunt. 

4th version in the pictures.

I would be happy to answer any questions about them.

[Vodkaman]

23 minutes ago, azsouth said:

Pictures are up in the gallery for anyone who is interested in modifying your crank baits to hunt. 

4th version in the pictures.

I would be happy to answer any questions about them.

Very interesting. You should have posted them on this thread, they are informative and relevant to the subject.

Dave

[azsouth]

I did not want to break the rules, they seem to change.

here they are.

[Hillbilly voodoo]

I have to ask when you originally put theses hooks together was the goal to make the lure hunt or were you trying to add some flash to a crankbait?

 

[azsouth]

originally a buddy had asked my to trick out his bladed swim jig and let the fish see something different, that is where the idea came from.

I found out rather quickly if you had a swivel you got the flash but the blade spinning on it killed the action of the bait.

making different versions of this modification I learned quite a bit about the effects of blades with/without a swivel. 

Edited April 28, 2021 by azsouth

[Hillbilly voodoo]

8 minutes ago, azsouth said:

originally a buddy had asked my to trick out his bladed swim jig and let the fish see something different, that is where the idea came from.

I found out rather quickly if you had a swivel you got the flash but the blade spinning on it killed the action of the bait.

making different versions of this modification I learned quite a bit about the effects of blades with/without a swivel. 

The things we stumble on when trying new 

Very interesting yet simple mod too

[SlowFISH]

First - thanks for sharing your knowledge / learnings... super helpful for many.

Second - I really like your design.... I bought one of these "hunting baits" years ago:

https://www.ichibantackle.com/products/3339-imakatsu-big-bats-waddle-bats-big/

It's "sorta" similar to your idea - having a small blade on the rear hook hanger... but your idea/invention is much more flexible as you can swap a hook without alot of effort compared to buying a boatload of the "big bats" as the blade was fixed/part of the rear hook hanger and not removable/changeable. 

To be honest - I fished the "big bat" a few times and it's been sitting in my box since... it definitely had a "sweet spot" and it was a very small sweet spot... most annoying part was if you hooked anything (weed/leaf) whatever - you had to roll this thing back to the boat... was super annoying if you missed a cast as you can't burn it back...

Anyway - thanks for sharing... looks like a cool idea and I like the simplicity.

  J.

[UKandy]

Did the different blade shapes have a different effect on the hunting action?

Interesting idea, well done 

Andy.

[azsouth]

5 minutes ago, UKandy said:

Did the different blade shapes have a different effect on the hunting action?

Interesting idea, well done 

Andy.

yes! without a doubt the different blades have different affects!

Basically the bigger the lip the bigger the bigger blade you can use and not blow it out.

[azsouth]

27 minutes ago, SlowFISH said:

First - thanks for sharing your knowledge / learnings... super helpful for many.

Second - I really like your design.... I bought one of these "hunting baits" years ago:

https://www.ichibantackle.com/products/3339-imakatsu-big-bats-waddle-bats-big/

It's "sorta" similar to your idea - having a small blade on the rear hook hanger... but your idea/invention is much more flexible as you can swap a hook without alot of effort compared to buying a boatload of the "big bats" as the blade was fixed/part of the rear hook hanger and not removable/changeable. 

To be honest - I fished the "big bat" a few times and it's been sitting in my box since... it definitely had a "sweet spot" and it was a very small sweet spot... most annoying part was if you hooked anything (weed/leaf) whatever - you had to roll this thing back to the boat... was super annoying if you missed a cast as you can't burn it back...

Anyway - thanks for sharing... looks like a cool idea and I like the simplicity.

  J.

Yes sir, very simple design but it does work

[UKandy]

1 minute ago, azsouth said:

yes! without a doubt the different blades have different affects!

Basically the bigger the lip the bigger the bigger blade you can use and not blow it out.

Very cool  good information thank you.

Andy.

[azsouth]

A few things that I had to learn by mistake/not knowing.

1. weight of the design.... too much weight will cause the bait to do unintended things

2. exactly how it is attached.... NO swivel or split ring, those bring on weight and blade issues.

3. size and length of wire to each size hook.... again this brings weight back into it.

4. blade size and shape to the size of bait and bill.... blade should be smaller than the bill, normally.

5. Bait HAS TO BE TUNED CORRECT before attaching modification!!!!

6. .024 ss wire is the best for weight to durability ratio.

These are just some of the things that I remember off the top of my head.

 

[Carbite]

Incredible.  Is this specifically on the rear hook hanger, or either?

This makes me want to say really nerdy things about frequency bc I'm a computer engineer major, but I don't know enough about how crankbaits work to thoroughly explain it.  It seems like the blade is meant to be on the rear hook hanger, and wobble back and forth like a spoon.  Since that wobble is usually at a frequency that doesn't match the crankbait itself, it destabilizes the action, sometimes adding energy and sometimes removing.

The issue seems to be that the rear blade has way too much drag, especially at the high high speeds of crankbaits.  A specially-made spoon; light, long and narrow, with a deep-ish cup at the end might do it.  Maybe cut the tip off a willow blade and bend the end up slightly.

[azsouth]

Yes sir, REAR HOOK HANGER ONLY! Frequency theory is above my pay grade, but I can/do understand movements of blades and baits.

I also have been thinking of just making clear blades out of clear plastic but in the desert climate I live in they would not last.

I am currently using willow, French, Colorado, and Indiana blades with good success.

[Vodkaman]

AZSouth - the best way to think about the rules; consider the purpose posting an image. Are you trying to clarify a technique, explain a feature or some other construction OR are you just trying to get feedback on your latest paint job.

I love the construction; whipping on the extra eye, very smooth. Loving the story of how you arrived at the idea and the work you did to explore the idea. I would say 'Share of the Year' and we are only in April.

Carbite - I have an idea about what is happening. The lip has a different frequency to the blade. Occasionally the 'pull' of front and rear aligns causing a change in direction. I worked on this idea about 14 years ago when I built bodies with two different width lips, front and back. The idea did not work because the water flow is a single, connected phenomenon and cannot be considered as two separate systems.

I have a video of two lures swimming side-by-side, the lures always swim in sync with each other. This is complex fluid dynamics, but we can see it happen. I would love to see some video of the tail spinner lure

Here is the video:

Dave