How to make a good crawler & prop bait

[UKandy]

Hi all,

So as the title suggests I'm looking to make a few lures that are totally new to me, I would like to ask if any of you can give me some pointers to what design features make a crawler work well and what design features make a top water prop bait work well please?

I would like to make a chunky 4"-5" crawler bait & a 6"-7" prop bait that throws a lot of water.

I would be very interested to hear your thoughts and hopefully learn a little from you, any mistakes I can iron out before I make a start on the new designs will help massively 

Many thanks guys

Andy.

 

 

[JD_mudbug]

I have heard crawler and creeper used interchangeably. You should check out Dieter's creeper. It is one of the best I have seen. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H3hQGIWwAg&t=626s

The wing mounting position is critical. The wings should be mounted just below the horizontal mid-line to catch water and just forward of the front-to-back midpoint for the best pivoting position. The wings should be long enough to reach just past the nose of the bait. Too long they could hit the line, too short and the wings may not open up. Fortunately, Dieter included some mid-construction still shots at 7:55 showing the mounting placement. 

I made my first creeper with LPO wings. I made my second with wings made from a small aluminum sheet i got at a big box hardware store. I bent the back end of my wings back to limit the frequency of the wobble. Dieter's uses a limiting arm on the wing mounting bracket to limit the wobble.

 

By prop bait do you mean a single rear prop, a front and a rear prop, a double rear prop, or a globe lure type prop bait?

[UKandy]

5 hours ago, JD_mudbug said:

I have heard crawler and creeper used interchangeably. You should check out Dieter's creeper. It is one of the best I have seen. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H3hQGIWwAg&t=626s

The wing mounting position is critical. The wings should be mounted just below the horizontal mid-line to catch water and just forward of the front-to-back midpoint for the best pivoting position. The wings should be long enough to reach just past the nose of the bait. Too long they could hit the line, too short and the wings may not open up. Fortunately, Dieter included some mid-construction still shots at 7:55 showing the mounting placement. 

I made my first creeper with LPO wings. I made my second with wings made from a small aluminum sheet i got at a big box hardware store. I bent the back end of my wings back to limit the frequency of the wobble. Dieter's uses a limiting arm on the wing mounting bracket to limit the wobble.

 

By prop bait do you mean a single rear prop, a front and a rear prop, a double rear prop, or a globe lure type prop bait?

Thanks for your input JD  I will be having a good look over the video you linked.

So it sounds like a small adjustment to the wings can make a big difference to the wobble. You have given me a good starting point regarding wing position, so thank you my friend.

As for the prop bait I was thinking of either a single prop or front & rear props, as I am yet to design or build this type of lure, I would be interested to learn what the differences are by having the props located in different positions, pros & cons?

 

Many thanks again

Andy.

 

 

 

[JD_mudbug]

My first creeper did not work until I bent the rear end of the wing  back less than they came. The wings were too open on the retrieve with a wobble so large that the whole bait would flip over. The good thing about a creeper is you can test the wings after you seal the bait with a small bent piece of shaft wire for a pin.

From the prop lures I have made, my single rear prop lures are louder than my front and rear prop lures. Both can catch fish. And you can vary the retrieve on both.

I think the front and rear prop bait works best when it sits flat in the water so both blades get enough water. I like a single rear prop lure to sit slightly tail down to prevent any nose diving and to make sure the prop gets a lot of water. If going with a rear prop only, the bait may sit tail down too much depending on the prop and rear hook weight. You may have to put a small ballast somewhere in front of the midpoint lengthwise to get it to sit only slightly tail down. The most commotion is a double rear prop with counter rotating blades. It looks like a blender in the water. The double rear props maybe too cause much commotion. I know peacock bass like them.  I have only caught a single fish (pike) on that one.

I would use a cup washer on the body ends. Cup washers give the body more durability from prop and hardware impact on casts and clear coat wear from the prop rotating constantly. On the front after the loop, I had a bead then the prop. After the prop blade, I had a bead and  then a LPO disc washer free spinning on the shaft or screw. Then, a cup washer epoxied to the lure body. The disc washer is probably overkill but I want the bait to last. 

On the back, I had a cup washer epoxied to the body, a free spinning bead, the prop, a disc washer or bead, then a rivet. I used a rivet to give the prop a little more space from the rear hook attachment loop. Big baits have big hooks which can foul the rear prop especially on a slow retrieve. You can use surgical or shrink tubing to hold the hook straight out if the rivet doesn't prevent that. The beads and washers may seem like a bit much. I wanted to make sure cut floating grass and scum had the least chance of stopping the props. You don't even notice them due to the size of the bait you are making.

Also, I had trouble getting props to spin on twisted wire screws. I made mine with the longer LPO .092 screws which have a smooth section near the screw eyes that props spin very easily on. I also have made a couple of wire-through prop baits and the props spin easily on shaft wire. 

Lastly, if making a prop bait shaped like a baitfish on its side, the fish will be viewing it from the bottom. I focused my painting efforts on the side the fish sees.

Good luck. There is nothing quite like a topwater hit especially own your own bait.

[LHL]

JD has already provided a ton of good information but I'll throw my hat in the ring here since I just recently built a delta prop bait.

 

Hopefully this picture can help explain some things. I went with a through wire construction so I started by carving the cedar blank and then drilling a hole straight through the bait. This presents it's own complications as the wire is free to slide back and forth which will pinch the blade in the back when retrieving the bait, stopping it from rotating. To counter this I added a bead in the back and then bent the wire in a 'Z' shape so that the bead presses against the body when the lure is retrieved but stops at the bend in the wire, leaving the rear blade freedom to spin. Check out Musky Madness Trophy Topper for better pictures of the bend. I didn't go with the cup washers or screw eye base eyelets but if I were to do it again I definitely would. 

The final note I'd make is I added a small amount of weight just behind the front hook hanger to act as a ballast to keep the body from rolling on the retrieve. I'll have to double check but from what I remember in my testing this bait sits pretty level, if not very slightly tail down. If it sits nose down then the front blade will dig and not throw any water which is the whole point! This is a more subtle top water but if you bend the blades up to almost 90 degress you'll get a lot better commotion out of it. 

[JD_mudbug]

LHL, great point about the Z bend on a wire through bait. I ran into that problem on the wire through baits and did a Z bend as well. I forgot about that until your post. The body on bass colored bait has a rivet set into the ends of the body to stop the Z bend from sliding into the bait. It looks like on some lure bodies I used cup washers and on others I used a rivet set into the wire through shaft hole. The first pic shows a closeup of my Z from the side. I had the Z bend drop down. 

I also made one wire through that ended in a loop at the tail end of bait (gold colored bait). Off that loop, I attached a second short  piece of shaft wire by creating a loop through the loop at the end of the body. This will also stop the shaft wire sliding as the loop is the stop. I never really like the way the blade hangs down at rest once I saw it in the water. It looks unnatural to me. I saw some baits like this and decided to try it. It works. It just looks weird to me. I prefer the lures with one shaft wire with the Z bend.

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by JD_mudbug
grammar

[UKandy]

3 hours ago, JD_mudbug said:

My first creeper did not work until I bent the rear end of the wing  back less than they came. The wings were too open on the retrieve with a wobble so large that the whole bait would flip over. The good thing about a creeper is you can test the wings after you seal the bait with a small bent piece of shaft wire for a pin.

From the prop lures I have made, my single rear prop lures are louder than my front and rear prop lures. Both can catch fish. And you can vary the retrieve on both.

I think the front and rear prop bait works best when it sits flat in the water so both blades get enough water. I like a single rear prop lure to sit slightly tail down to prevent any nose diving and to make sure the prop gets a lot of water. If going with a rear prop only, the bait may sit tail down too much depending on the prop and rear hook weight. You may have to put a small ballast somewhere in front of the midpoint lengthwise to get it to sit only slightly tail down. The most commotion is a double rear prop with counter rotating blades. It looks like a blender in the water. The double rear props maybe too cause much commotion. I know peacock bass like them.  I have only caught a single fish (pike) on that one.

I would use a cup washer on the body ends. Cup washers give the body more durability from prop and hardware impact on casts and clear coat wear from the prop rotating constantly. On the front after the loop, I had a bead then the prop. After the prop blade, I had a bead and  then a LPO disc washer free spinning on the shaft or screw. Then, a cup washer epoxied to the lure body. The disc washer is probably overkill but I want the bait to last. 

On the back, I had a cup washer epoxied to the body, a free spinning bead, the prop, a disc washer or bead, then a rivet. I used a rivet to give the prop a little more space from the rear hook attachment loop. Big baits have big hooks which can foul the rear prop especially on a slow retrieve. You can use surgical or shrink tubing to hold the hook straight out if the rivet doesn't prevent that. The beads and washers may seem like a bit much. I wanted to make sure cut floating grass and scum had the least chance of stopping the props. You don't even notice them due to the size of the bait you are making.

Also, I had trouble getting props to spin on twisted wire screws. I made mine with the longer LPO .092 screws which have a smooth section near the screw eyes that props spin very easily on. I also have made a couple of wire-through prop baits and the props spin easily on shaft wire. 

Lastly, if making a prop bait shaped like a baitfish on its side, the fish will be viewing it from the bottom. I focused my painting efforts on the side the fish sees.

Good luck. There is nothing quite like a topwater hit especially own your own bait.

JD That's some very good information thank you  I will certainly take that forward into my design thoughts.

I'm already liking the Idea of a cup washer on the bait, the Z bend from the later posts is a top idea aswell. That's something I'd never thought about either until now... the counter rotating prop blades! This has certainly given me something to go at and try out, so big thanks JD.

Andy.

[UKandy]

2 hours ago, LHL said:

JD has already provided a ton of good information but I'll throw my hat in the ring here since I just recently built a delta prop bait.

 

Hopefully this picture can help explain some things. I went with a through wire construction so I started by carving the cedar blank and then drilling a hole straight through the bait. This presents it's own complications as the wire is free to slide back and forth which will pinch the blade in the back when retrieving the bait, stopping it from rotating. To counter this I added a bead in the back and then bent the wire in a 'Z' shape so that the bead presses against the body when the lure is retrieved but stops at the bend in the wire, leaving the rear blade freedom to spin. Check out Musky Madness Trophy Topper for better pictures of the bend. I didn't go with the cup washers or screw eye base eyelets but if I were to do it again I definitely would. 

The final note I'd make is I added a small amount of weight just behind the front hook hanger to act as a ballast to keep the body from rolling on the retrieve. I'll have to double check but from what I remember in my testing this bait sits pretty level, if not very slightly tail down. If it sits nose down then the front blade will dig and not throw any water which is the whole point! This is a more subtle top water but if you bend the blades up to almost 90 degress you'll get a lot better commotion out of it. 

Thanks for the input LHL I enjoyed reading it, the Z bend you mentioned is a great idea!

Did adding the ballast eliminate all body roll or just help? Your bait looks really cool I like it 

Andy.

[UKandy]

Can I ask where you guys get all of your blades/props from please?

Andy 

[JD_mudbug]

I get my blades from LPO, Janns, or  Barlows. It depends on who has the best price on what I need at that moment. Just type in 'prop',  'propeller blade', 'delta blade', or 'buzz blade' into their sites' search box. Some different types are called 'chopper', 'woodchopper', or 'dumbell' props.

I have made some blades out of sheet metal but I find it is just easier to buy them.

https://www.lurepartsonline.com/search?keywords=prop&page=1 

https://www.jannsnetcraft.com/Search/propeller blades.aspx

https://barlowstackle.com/search.php?search_query_adv=prop&section=product

The ones in the pics are called Delta blades or (counter rotating) buzz blades. The props/blades come in different sizes and also list if they are clockwise (CW) or counter clockwise (CCW). Smaller size blades tend to only come in one spin direction.

You should be able to eliminate roll with ballast. 

If the bait is really flat like the side profile of a baitfish (like the bass lure above), on a rare occasion the bait lands upside down (with the hooks up) and doesn't flip to its proper running side even with ballast. A rod jerk at the start of the cast will get to flip to the right side. The top side of that bass bait is painted flo orange so I can see it on a long cast. I have seen some big Japanese topwaters that had put bright spots on the top so the angler could see what the bait was doing on the retrieve. The fish never see that part of the bait.  If I don't see the flo orange top on that bait, I know it landed upside down and didn't flip. I have some other flat baits where I just paint a bright spot or stripe on top for visibility. It doesn't happen often, but its annoying if you retrieve a lure and it's messed up and didn't know it. The more rounded bodies usually land correctly as they rotate to the proper side on landing.

 

[Hillbilly voodoo]

take a look at the surface paddles made for Murray cod in Australia. They have a variety of interesting designs. 

There is a thread on the forum about the one I made. The design I made has caught pike, musky, and bass. I did add larger hooks and a dressed hook to my newer ones.

if you have questions about it just ask. I know there is a few Australian’s hiding here too that could likely be helpful 

[UKandy]

22 hours ago, JD_mudbug said:

I get my blades from LPO, Janns, or  Barlows. It depends on who has the best price on what I need at that moment. Just type in 'prop',  'propeller blade', 'delta blade', or 'buzz blade' into their sites' search box. Some different types are called 'chopper', 'woodchopper', or 'dumbell' props.

I have made some blades out of sheet metal but I find it is just easier to buy them.

https://www.lurepartsonline.com/search?keywords=prop&page=1 

https://www.jannsnetcraft.com/Search/propeller blades.aspx

https://barlowstackle.com/search.php?search_query_adv=prop&section=product

The ones in the pics are called Delta blades or (counter rotating) buzz blades. The props/blades come in different sizes and also list if they are clockwise (CW) or counter clockwise (CCW). Smaller size blades tend to only come in one spin direction.

You should be able to eliminate roll with ballast. 

If the bait is really flat like the side profile of a baitfish (like the bass lure above), on a rare occasion the bait lands upside down (with the hooks up) and doesn't flip to its proper running side even with ballast. A rod jerk at the start of the cast will get to flip to the right side. The top side of that bass bait is painted flo orange so I can see it on a long cast. I have seen some big Japanese topwaters that had put bright spots on the top so the angler could see what the bait was doing on the retrieve. The fish never see that part of the bait.  If I don't see the flo orange top on that bait, I know it landed upside down and didn't flip. I have some other flat baits where I just paint a bright spot or stripe on top for visibility. It doesn't happen often, but its annoying if you retrieve a lure and it's messed up and didn't know it. The more rounded bodies usually land correctly as they rotate to the proper side on landing.

 

Thanks again for all the info JD, really appreciated my friend 

Andy.

[UKandy]

4 hours ago, Hillbilly voodoo said:

take a look at the surface paddles made for Murray cod in Australia. They have a variety of interesting designs. 

There is a thread on the forum about the one I made. The design I made has caught pike, musky, and bass. I did add larger hooks and a dressed hook to my newer ones.

if you have questions about it just ask. I know there is a few Australian’s hiding here too that could likely be helpful 

This sounds really interesting Hillbilly  have you got a link for the thread please?

Andy.

[Hillbilly voodoo]

54 minutes ago, UKandy said:

This sounds really interesting Hillbilly  have you got a link for the thread please?

Andy.

Not much of a computer guy but if you search surface paddler on the forum it should show 

[UKandy]

4 minutes ago, Hillbilly voodoo said:

Not much of a computer guy but if you search surface paddler on the forum it should show 

Cool will have a look 

Andy.

[LHL]

On 8/30/2021 at 1:34 PM, UKandy said:

Thanks for the input LHL I enjoyed reading it, the Z bend you mentioned is a great idea!

Did adding the ballast eliminate all body roll or just help? Your bait looks really cool I like it 

Andy.

Adding the ballast for me removed all body roll in the bait as far as I can tell. The body is more or less a cigar shape with the belly slightly deeper than the rest of the bait to put the ballast weight as low as possible. It's still free to spin around the shaft but it rights itself as soon as it hits the water and has yet to spin out on any speed retrieve. The belly hook also helps with this. 

[Outlaw4]

one thing to keep in mind on prop baits, in particular rear prop baits is to make sure the rear hook clears the prop or you may find it to stall on start up. need to space them back or heat shrink them straight