Paddletail design wobbling too much

[TB33]

Hi all,

Long time lurker first time poster. Looking to see if I could get some pointers on correcting a bait I'm making. I'm designing a 9" paddletail and I can't seem to get the bait to run without much of a wobble. The paddle is a round tail and I made the end fairly thin and 'short' leading up to the paddle, the body is similar to that of big sassy shad but shorter in height from top to belly with a more rounded face and thinner profile all around. It kicks great but wobbles side to side 90 degrees. Any pointers on changes to make on my new master would be greatly appreciated. 

[Vodkaman]

Photos and a video would be very useful, as your description offers us little to go on.

You may be concerned about offering photos, but this is a perfect case were photos are justified. BUT, we really need a video of what is going on in the water.

Dave

[Travis]

How are you rigging the bait? 

[Outlaw4]

im not sure there is such a things as too much wobble if its not unstable. wobble and kick in a paddle tail is good. id fish test it good before making too big a swing

[TB33]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies so far. It's been raining non-stop so I haven't been able to get a video. I rig either with a 1-2oz jighead or an 11/0 widegap. The bait is similar in design to the picture attached. The body roll is too much as it turns the belly to the side and just doesn't look realistic in any sense and I would actually prefer as little if none of the body roll and just tail action. I played around cutting the tail from a circular paddle to a slightly smaller square shape and that helped slightly. Maybe the issue is the flat sides of the body and too large of a circular tail? Should I redo my master with more of a V taper from the belly? Once the weather clears up I will try and get some clear footage.

 

 

 

[Outlaw4]

another thing you might consider is you can isolate the paddle from the body to some extent with segmentation like the yamamoto zako. its very popular as a vibrating jig trailer as is doesnt mess up the vibration and yet still has tail kick.

 

[Bass-Boys]

How do the baits pictured swim ? 

 the 6 pictured that are 22cm/63gr

Edited September 2, 2021 by Bass-Boys

[TB33]

The baits pictured are not mine, they are Westin ShadTeez, swimming action below. The bait I made is bigger with a slightly bigger paddle and it is not as tall (back to belly). The poured baits with 262 swim almost identical to the video, maybe a bit more belly roll. 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by TB33

[21xdc]

Softer plastic should help a lot. 

[Travis]

2 hours ago, 21xdc said:

Softer plastic should help a lot. 

Has been my experience also.   

Keep trimming the tail and maybe thin the area from the main body to the tail.   Typically if too thick it starts to create too much drag and will cause a bait to start to roll on the few I made initially.  Good thing about soft plastics easy to trim and change shape.  A lighter can be used to thin the tail section on the water and let the melted plastic drip back on the tail paddle.

[Vodkaman]

I have given this problem some thought. I get my best ideas in sleep and this problem just gave me a rude awakening.

Theory - If you tow a round plate behind a swivel then it will rotate in one direction infinitely. The reason being is that the single vortex is continually propagating as it advances around the disk, the vortex never finishes and thus vortex shedding never occurs to cause the vortex to reverse.

The Shafteez video above is very enlightening. First notice that the tail is rotating back and forth over the back of the lure rather than underneath the lure as designed. From the start of the swim, the lure tail is rotated through 180° before the alternating action even starts. This means that the bait is already loaded heavily from one side only with a 180° twist, and this loading causes the lure to swim on its side.

Even though the tail shape is close to circular, the vortex is terminated when the tail section reaches the limit of twist. A new vortex forms on the opposite side and the tail twists in the opposite direction.

I cannot explain everything because the action changes with speed. At very slow speeds, the tail swims under the bait as designed. At medium speeds, the tail swims in a figure-8 shape. At higher speeds the tail twists 180° and swims above the lure.

To stop the rotation, you have to abandon the circle lip and adopt a shape that naturally causes the vortex to shed and initiate a vortex reversal. This shape involves an inverted ‘V’ shape with straight edges, a bit like the front lip of a hard bait lure.

If you want to troll a circle tail at the higher speed then reverse the tail design; point the tail up rather than the normal down, this will cure the lure swimming on its side.

Y’all know that explaining is not my thing and I have given you some heavy explanations to think about, explanations that basically say that you have been designing paddle-tails wrong all your lives. I suggest that you study the Shadteez and any other paddle-tail swim videos very closely and make up your own minds.

Some of you are not going to like this post, particularly as I don't do soft plastics. That is too bad.

Dave

Edited September 6, 2021 by Vodkaman

[mark poulson]

4 hours ago, Vodkaman said:

I have given this problem some thought. I get my best ideas in sleep and this problem just gave me a rude awakening.

Theory - If you tow a round plate behind a swivel then it will rotate in one direction infinitely. The reason being is that the single vortex is continually propagating as it advances around the disk, the vortex never finishes and thus vortex shedding never occurs to cause the vortex to reverse.

The Shafteez video above is very enlightening. First notice that the tail is rotating back and forth over the back of the lure rather than underneath the lure as designed. From the start of the swim, the lure tail is rotated through 180° before the alternating action even starts. This means that the bait is already loaded heavily from one side only with a 180° twist, and this loading causes the lure to swim on its side.

Even though the tail shape is close to circular, the vortex is terminated when the tail section reaches the limit of twist. A new vortex forms on the opposite side and the tail twists in the opposite direction.

I cannot explain everything because the action changes with speed. At very slow speeds, the tail swims under the bait as designed. At medium speeds, the tail swims in a figure-8 shape. At higher speeds the tail twists 180° and swims above the lure.

To stop the rotation, you have to abandon the circle lip and adopt a shape that naturally causes the vortex to shed and initiate a vortex reversal. This shape involves an inverted ‘V’ shape with straight edges, a bit like the front lip of a hard bait lure.

If you want to troll a circle tail at the higher speed then reverse the tail design; point the tail up rather than the normal down, this will cure the lure swimming on its side.

Y’all know that explaining is not my thing and I have given you some heavy explanations to think about, explanations that basically say that you have been designing paddle-tails wrong all your lives. I suggest that you study the Shadteez and any other paddle-tail swim videos very closely and make up your own minds.

Some of you are not going to like this post, particularly as I don't do soft plastics. That is too bad.

Dave

Dave,

Would having a longer tail stem, the part leading to the circular tail, reduce the tail's affect on the body?

[Vodkaman]

22 minutes ago, mark poulson said:

Would having a longer tail stem, the part leading to the circular tail, reduce the tail's affect on the body?

Very good thinking Mark. I cannot reply with any conviction. My first instinct is that the extension would allow the tail to rotate further until the resistance from the body trying to rotate stopped the tail and the vortex reversed.

So, the result would be the tail traveled further but the body would still rotate the same amount. But, all of this discussion is highly hypothetical, unproven conjecture, just me applying what I have learned about vortices.

But, if ever I was to design a paddle tail, this post would be high on my considerations list.

Dave

Edited September 6, 2021 by Vodkaman

[alsworms]

On 9/1/2021 at 8:48 AM, Vodkaman said:

Photos and a video would be very useful, as your description offers us little to go on.

You may be concerned about offering photos, but this is a perfect case were photos are justified. BUT, we really need a video of what is going on in the water.

Dave

Sadly, there have been several pics reported that I believe were posted by a member or members in need of help. But it is what it is............

[TB33]

@Vodkaman so a shape shimilar to a square boot that begins thinner and gets gradually wider toward the bottom? I'm doing a redesign of the entire bait and making it a rounder body profile from the belly up rather than flat as well as a smaller square boot. I'm almost ready to clear coat my master for the mold pour but am contemplating final adjustments. 

 

Another question, on a roughly 9" bait how much loss can I expect from the master for a silicone mold? Does roughly 10% sound right? I would check against the baits I've made but I already disposed of the old masters.

[Vodkaman]

1 hour ago, TB33 said:

@Vodkaman so a shape similar to a square boot that begins thinner and gets gradually wider toward the bottom? I'm doing a redesign of the entire bait and making it a rounder body profile from the belly up rather than flat as well as a smaller square boot. I'm almost ready to clear coat my master for the mold pour but am contemplating final adjustments.

Yes. Vortices always want to be vertical, there is a reason for this but I cannot remember. tornadoes are formed by a horizontal vortex switching to vertical. So, if you provide a square(ish) boot then the vortices will form on the sides.

Be prepared to experiment and prototype more variations. Shoot video and study the swim in slow motion. If the tail flips/twists as in the Shafteez video then you may have to reverse the tail.

The rounder body may give you problems, but good luck with it. Always best to change one feature at a time or you will not learn what works and what doesn't.

Dave

Edited September 10, 2021 by Vodkaman