Glide Bait Design

[walkercope]

I'm planning to try and build my own glide bait soon.  The current plan is to design and 3d print a master, make a mold, and pour resin to create the baits and I'm trying to get a good understanding of how it should be weighted to keep it as stable as possible during fast retrieves.  Most videos I've seen online they just glue some weights to the bottom of the lure after it's all said and done but I was thinking about creating some kind of harness with lead towards the bottom of the bait and maybe foam towards the top.  

The bait would either be two sides per piece, glued together at the end with the harness sandwiched in, or poured with the harness already inside the mold.  Anyone here have experience doing this and could tell me if I'm on the right track or not?

[Anglinarcher]

I think that you might be getting the cart before the horse a little by 3D printing first, but .....

Glide baits are a broad category of baits, and getting them to "glide" often takes a lot of work just getting the shape right, and then, getting weight right.

As for the rest, I pour with the weight in place, and have used foam on the top.  It takes a little adjustment to get it right, but it makes for one solid bait.

 

[rbredefe]

For the very first bait pouring without weight is obvious. It will take a digital scale and experimentation to get the sink rate that you want to achieve. Once you know your desired weight you can include them in your molds. This will speed up production.  However not every one will be perfect. 

[azsouth]

I think people don't know what they are getting into when they say " I am making a glide bait" Hands down it's the most temperamental bait to make!! the bait characteristics will change with elevation, temperature, line size, snaps, no snap, barometric pressure...and folks there are many more considerations that can/will effect a glide bait.

I am not saying don't try to make a glide bait but get ready to be frustrated at almost every turn to get a decent glide bait and not a paper weight.

[Outlaw4]

i think your on a fine track. but as others have stated you will just need to do a lot of R&D work to figure out the densities / weighting required for the size and shape and desired actions. So think out a plan of how you can build test baits that you can control the variables well, with a mind always how you can build one repeatable if you plan on selling. 

 

[Vodkaman]

You can do most of the R+D on the computer using your CAD software. Inputting material densities and ballast positions, you can get your lure to float exactly how you want it to, with the desired buoyancy too. Split body materials can also be modeled, saving probably a hundred hours or more of test pours.

Dave

[Matt Moreau]

A few questions, thoughts and things to consider IMHO!

Is this your first time designing building a lure? 

What type of glide bait a 1 piece or 2 piece?

If 2 piece glide like others have mentioned in my years of building baits (and a few years tinkering on 2 piece glides) I still dont fully understand them and the mechanics. They are by far the most difficult lure to get perfect.

In general your first baits probably are not going to work how you would like.

The time and monetary investment to design and mold them will be fairly substantial. 

 

Now If I haven't scared you off you can do things in the order you mention. I have not poured the 2 sides and glued them but I make balsa cranks that way and its fine. Pouring a bait with an internal harness is fine as long as you use your loops as locators and to hold the harness straight. I would strongly suggest building a few baits by hand to get an idea of what works and doesn't or at least copy a known design to test your methods. You are going to have a learning curve and mess things up at first I know I did but thats ok and part of learning. 

Whatever you decide ask questions lots of good people on here.

 

[mark poulson]

In another forum thread on the Hard Baits Forum, several years ago, I learned that making sure that the two sections fall at the same rate, fall horizontal, and have friction-free hinges, were the keys to getting my two piece glide baits to glide.  Be sure you have all the hardware, and the hook/split rings, attached when you float test each section side by side, and not attached to each other.

[walkercope]

On 1/12/2022 at 5:51 PM, Vodkaman said:

You can do most of the R+D on the computer using your CAD software. Inputting material densities and ballast positions, you can get your lure to float exactly how you want it to, with the desired buoyancy too. Split body materials can also be modeled, saving probably a hundred hours or more of test pours.

Dave

Have you done any flow analysis and if so is there any free software you'd recommend?

[Vodkaman]

4 minutes ago, walkercope said:

Have you done any flow analysis and if so is there any free software you'd recommend?

Flow analysis software will not help. It is very basic, flow past an object. I looked into the idea years ago and quickly rejected the thought. The software is expensive and complex, requiring some knowledge of the fluid dynamics subject.

Dave

[walkercope]

1 hour ago, Vodkaman said:

Flow analysis software will not help. It is very basic, flow past an object. I looked into the idea years ago and quickly rejected the thought. The software is expensive and complex, requiring some knowledge of the fluid dynamics subject.

Dave

I took a couple classes in school about fluid dynamics and have used some software in the past, but I had free access from school.  At least with that software it was pretty simple to to import a model and have it model the flow around it, and it would calculate the center of buoyancy for you and probably other useful things..but yeah I think a license is like 40k

[Vodkaman]

2 hours ago, walkercope said:

I took a couple classes in school about fluid dynamics and have used some software in the past, but I had free access from school.  At least with that software it was pretty simple to to import a model and have it model the flow around it, and it would calculate the center of buoyancy for you and probably other useful things..but yeah I think a license is like 40k

Well, with your experience it might well be worth having a play with. Most software, even the expensive professional software, is available free using torrents, this is how I am able to use Catia V5 design software.

Tell me the name of the software and I will see if it is available for you.

Dave

[walkercope]

9 hours ago, Vodkaman said:

Well, with your experience it might well be worth having a play with. Most software, even the expensive professional software, is available free using torrents, this is how I am able to use Catia V5 design software.

Tell me the name of the software and I will see if it is available for you.

Dave

I don't remember what it was called - I haven't used it in 8 years now anyways.  I'll see if I can find a good free option once I've got a model finished and report back.

[RiverSmallieGuy]

I am still in school and I am in engineering classes, and we use Fusion 360. It is very user friendly, you just have to learn it. It is also very easy to add parts from McMaster-Carr into your drawings. Don't know much about buoyancy and density stuff with it, but Fusion 360 is very good.

[walkercope]

On 3/19/2022 at 11:32 PM, RiverSmallieGuy said:

I am still in school and I am in engineering classes, and we use Fusion 360. It is very user friendly, you just have to learn it. It is also very easy to add parts from McMaster-Carr into your drawings. Don't know much about buoyancy and density stuff with it, but Fusion 360 is very good.

Yeah I'm using Fusion 360 already for my design and some 3d prints I've been doing...but I'm using the free version.  I think it has flow analysis capability but it requires a license which is like 400$ a year which is not worth it to me.

[walkercope]

On 9/30/2021 at 11:42 AM, Anglinarcher said:

I think that you might be getting the cart before the horse a little by 3D printing first, but .....

Glide baits are a broad category of baits, and getting them to "glide" often takes a lot of work just getting the shape right, and then, getting weight right.

As for the rest, I pour with the weight in place, and have used foam on the top.  It takes a little adjustment to get it right, but it makes for one solid bait.

 

I'm planning to 3d print it just because I already have some printing experience and a printer...and I have zero carving experience so printing the master seems easier to me...

A big question on my mind is if I should 1) pour the body and then add in all the weight and hardware or 2) make some kind of harness and have it in the mold when I pour the resin...your way seems like the way to go but it sounds tricky to get right?

Do you put the eyelets and swivels in before you pour too?  How do you hold the foam and weights in place in the mold?

[RiverSmallieGuy]

A harness would make the lures more consistent in terms of making them, but you would need to figure out a really good way to do it that combines workability and strength.

[RideHPD]

On 3/23/2022 at 6:52 AM, walkercope said:

I'm planning to 3d print it just because I already have some printing experience and a printer...and I have zero carving experience so printing the master seems easier to me...

A big question on my mind is if I should 1) pour the body and then add in all the weight and hardware or 2) make some kind of harness and have it in the mold when I pour the resin...your way seems like the way to go but it sounds tricky to get right?

Do you put the eyelets and swivels in before you pour too?  How do you hold the foam and weights in place in the mold?

If you have printing experience then you're halfway there, as you know there are plenty of tweaks to be made to tune FDM printers for print resolution/dimensional accuracy. I've been doing this a lot with an Ender 3 and will probably be buying an SLA or DLP machine here soon to up throughput. I've gone about this a couple of ways with success making single body lures, but weights/etc are all fully located in the process. First way is by printing each half independently, with recesses to capture the weights and 2-3 2mm steel dowel pins to locate each half. Then you just put the weights in place and press the two halves together, using the pins to hold them together.

Getting a really perfect first (couple) layer(s) is pretty key to avoid warping, elephant's foot, etc. and you'll likely need to play with your model to get proper fit of weights/pins depending on your slicer and how your printer works. 0.2mm nozzle all-day. Takes forever, but the surface accuracy is worth it.

To get a quick and dirty proto I'll print the eyelets too, which requires some finesse to attach split rings/etc. too, and the action may change from the new degree of freedom you get from the flexibility of the eye, but it has some utility. You can also go a step further and include recesses for a wire harness, which leads to the next method...

Directly 3D printing the mold. There's some literature saying that you need a filament with a high heat deflection like PETG or TPU to handle the exotherm, but if the volume is small you can use PLA no-problem. I've been doing that after I gave up trying to get my machine to print PETG out of a 0.2 nozzle and just sent it.

Wire harness is held in place by dowel pins of diameter nominal to the desired eyelet size, with recesses to accommodate the wire eyelets themselves. This has the added benefit of simultaneously creating locating features for mold lockup, but can make for a more difficult demolding experience as you will need to design one half to a sliding/clearance tolerance to be able to demold, and resin will work its way in there. Though as long as a good mold release is used, I haven't had an issue with this, much less than with CNC Al molds of equivalent tolerance. Just don't have the pin enter into the clearance toleranced hole more than one diameter of the pin in question and you should be good.

Additionally you can place locating pins external to the mold cavity to avoid this and use positive mold features to locate and retain the wire harness, but they won't retain the harness as well which may be frustrating, especially if the harness isn't perfect. That said, you can do pretty good for yourself by printing wire bending jigs to complement, so with some technique it's not as big of an issue. I'd still probably recommend using pins to hold the harness, all-said.

You can do a lot of different things to incorporate weights into the wire harness, crimping lead, feeding bullet weights over the wire and retaining with crimps/thread/thin wire/etc. There are a lot of options, just takes some creativity, but can be done very easily if planned well. Ultimate production is CNC laser cut stainless plate with locating and retention features, which I do as well but is outside of most budgets ($500+ starting if you have friends) unless you're planning to go the full production route.

For molds, 1mm+ top/bottom/wall thickness, equal top and bottom thickness to avoid any part warp, I'm sure I'm forgetting some of the specific print settings that help.

[Anglinarcher]

I have a wire bender, and a jig, and I can make all of my harnesses the same.  Yes, figuring the original weight is tricky, but it works for me.

[Hillbilly voodoo]

All my resin baits are weighed with pure resin and at times lead bird shot. I will also use different % of micro balloons in different layers to achieve different things. I also will pour a layer let it mostly set and add lead shot if I want my weight suspended above the belly. My masters are carved taking this into consideration. My molds are also made so resin pours and settles where I want it

my hardware is poured into the bait

Most people look at resin baits as a way to replicate a wooden/or plastic lure and so did I when I first started using resin. I then started to realize you can accomplish a variety of things by layering, using different mixes of resin/micro balloons, or suspending lead 

Sure you can build harnesses that hold your weight and pour a mix similar to wood in buoyancy effectively but there is lots of options 

PS remember you will always have a portion of resin settle to the bottom creating a heavier section when pouring any mix of micro balloons and resin 

[RiverSmallieGuy]

Don't over complicate the weighting of a resin lure. The only differences from a resin lure to a wooden lure is buoyancy and the need for sealing. Yes, you can absolutely drop bird shot into your molds, and you will often succeed but when in doubt you can always just drill a lead hole into your lure and fill it with lead and a filler. Don't worry too much about having to drill your pilot holes through lead, you just have to be careful and take your time and clear your drill bits, even though drilling in lead is not ideal. Be careful while working with microballoons, resin, and lead. In particular, microballoons and lead are very bad for you. If you can, wear a respirator or ensure that you have very good ventilation.

[aulrich]

In fusion one tool I am starting to use more is the curve analysis tool. Just this morning I pulled a prototype of the printer and it had a weird dip near the tail on the spine of the bait. The curve analysis did show a blue area at that spot I adjusted it and this is the corrected look.

There are two other really useful attributes  Center of Mass and the Volume of the body. This particular body  displaces 62 ml so I need more than that to have it sink, I am using 4 00 Buck pellets they are about 14 grams no reason just pulled it out of the air. Here is where 3d printing shines, I can control the density of the lure body  by adjusting the % infill  I adjust the final print weight so that when I add in the ballast I end up just shy of neutral.  Hardware paint and top coat should push me over 64 grams. 

One attribute that I have not found but I think would be very useful is the center of area for a profile view. I don't think the center of mass mark here is the same. As I understand it, for glide and swimbaits you want the line tie on the same level on the y axis as the center of area. 

I think it would be possible to model a glide bait and get it over 95% right just on the screen even if your end goal is a resin bait. First you need to determine what infill % you need to print at to get the same density as your desired resin formula will pour at. I think this is important since I think you want to minimize the amount of molds you make during prototyping. 

Then model everything you will need component wise and if not a accurate visual representation at least something of the right weight. For hooks and split rings I would just make something that looked like a kettle weight. Once you have the model you will have an idea on how much ballast you will need. If I had to guess if you place the ballast so the the center of gravity is on or under the center of area but inline with it on the x axis you will end up with a lure that sinks level. At this point you have a basic shape with maybe a eye socket but no other decoration you want it swimming first then add the gingerbread. I would print another lure after you add the decoration to ensure it's still behaving. 

Warning this is pure theory/speculation it's me thinking outload so it is far less reliable than my usual low reliability of what I type. So the usual take everything I say with a pinch of salt  should be a handful of salt

Now it's time to translate the printed lure into a mold I am not sold on a printed mold ... yet. so print out another lure and fill the ballast holes. Give the lure body a coat of CA glue and sand smooth add the screw eyes and mold like you would for a carved lure. While the mold is curing go back to Fusion and model a fixture that you could drop the lure into that has drill guides that match the ballast locations. Once you have a cast lure you pop it into the fixture drill out the ballast holes and finish the lure. With luck the ballast location won't need adjustments but if needed you can move the location of the drill guide holes or sizes and reprint the fixture and not have to make a new mold. 

[Hillbilly voodoo]

5 hours ago, RiverSmallieGuy said:

Don't over complicate the weighting of a resin lure. The only differences from a resin lure to a wooden lure is buoyancy and the need for sealing. Yes, you can absolutely drop bird shot into your molds, and you will often succeed but when in doubt you can always just drill a lead hole into your lure and fill it with lead and a filler. Don't worry too much about having to drill your pilot holes through lead, you just have to be careful and take your time and clear your drill bits, even though drilling in lead is not ideal. Be careful while working with microballoons, resin, and lead. In particular, microballoons and lead are very bad for you. If you can, wear a respirator or ensure that you have very good ventilation.

I can tell you for a fact once you spend time messing around with the different attributes of resin is definitely it is not like working with wood 

If you just keep pouring baits with mix’s where you are attempting to duplicate wood buoyancy you are correct but that is limiting what can be done 

[RiverSmallieGuy]

17 minutes ago, Hillbilly voodoo said:

I can tell you for a fact once you spend time messing around with the different attributes of resin is definitely it is not like working with wood 

If you just keep pouring baits with mix’s where you are attempting to duplicate wood buoyancy you are correct but that is limiting what can be done 

I know that, but you know what I mean though? I was referring to it's effects on action of lures.

Edited April 18, 2022 by RiverSmallieGuy

[Hillbilly voodoo]

13 minutes ago, RiverSmallieGuy said:

I know that, but you know what I mean though? I was referring to it's effects on action of lures.

Action is definitely impacted do to the different weight of the material. Just like working with different woods like balsa vs heavy hardwood 

This can be a long back and forth conversation that will be side tracking the thread. If the OP wants more information regarding more complexed resin pouring I will get into it. If anyone else wants to get into it it would be best in a new thread