re-tempering hook eyes

[mark poulson]

I heat my jig hook eyes so I can open them without breaking to insert a chatter blade.

Is there a way I can re-temper them so they won't reopen as easily?

[cadman]

Mark,

    The way I was always taught to harden steel was to get the item (hook in this case) red hot. Then, quench (dip) in oil or water. Oil is a better choice in my opinion. However, this isn't as easy as it looks. There's hardening and tempering. In order to get the correct hardness you should really know what kind of steel you have. Because if you harden it too much it will get brittle and crack. There's a lot of science to this and I'm not an expert.  The other question is what do you do to the attached blade as you try to harden the hook? I would like to see some more responses to this as I would like to learn as well.

[mark poulson]

Ted, the Mustad jig hooks I'm using are soft after I heat the hook eye red hot.  They stay soft and don't break, like they did before I heated them.  I was hoping to find a way to re-temper them so they would still be soft enough to bend, but no longer be brittle when re-bent, like the originals.

[Dink Master]

Make your own wire forms, that are way better then the open hook eye method.

Get some Do-it Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms (STW155) and don't look back.

https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Do-it_Poison_Tail_Swing_Wire_Form_100pk/descpage-DIOTSW.html

Use the wire forms with your favorite flipping or spinnerbait hook.

[jigmeister]

I make my blade baits using a Do-It Arky style jig mold and don't need to heat hooks or use connecting links . 

I used a TriSquare to mark a line at a 45 degree angle down from the top of one side of the open mold (to one side of the sprue hole ) to the center of the round recess in the cavity where the eye of the jig hook sits in the mold halve  . I then use this mark for reference to make a line across both mold halves with the mold closed . Now using a hacksaw with the mold closed and positioned at a 45 deg angle in a vice I sawed along the lines I marked into the mold just down to the middle of where the hook eye sits . The mold is soft and cuts very easy so go slow . (The mold still pours arky jigs just fine with this mod ) 

OK now the blade part . ( I think I read this tip on this forum about using a center punch and tapping it into a hook eye lightly to open a gap the eye just enough for the blade to slip thru .  ) Now you can place the jighook with blade attached into the mold and place the blade in the slot you cut and close up . The lead pours up to and covers the gap so the blade can't slip out so you don't need to closed the gap in the eye you create The only thing really different is painting the head WITH the blade attached but it's do-able . I have never had a hook eye fail or break as a result of stretching it open a tiny bit .

I was apprehensive at first about sawing into a perfectly good mold but it is still working perfectly years later .   I tried to be detailed enough for people to visualize this mod but a picture would have been easier . If anyone is interested I'll dig my camera out and post pictures 

[jigmeister]

8 hours ago, Dink Master said:

Make your own wire forms, that are way better then the open hook eye method.

Get some Do-it Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms (STW155) and don't look back.

https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Do-it_Poison_Tail_Swing_Wire_Form_100pk/descpage-DIOTSW.html

Use the wire forms with your favorite flipping or spinnerbait hook.

OR use these Connector Links - Barlow's Tackle (barlowstackle.com)

[Dink Master]

1 hour ago, jigmeister said:

OR use these Connector Links - Barlow's Tackle (barlowstackle.com)

I used Connector Links for years. Inconsistent quality, too soft and have a larger diameter/gauge wire

then the Do-it Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms. The Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms are stronger and have a

smaller diameter. Smaller wire equals better/freer blade movement. Open eyed Hooks have a larger diameter

then the Connector Links. The choice is yours. The Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms are a close match to the 

Jack Hammer wire form.

[jigmeister]

I haven't used the links myself though others like them for this purpose .

 pretty much every Hollow bodied frog lure has one attached to the double hook .  I would tend to think if the #65 braid that anglers are throwing frogs on isn't opening the links wrestling big fish out of weeds they should be fine for other applications .

Ford Vs Chevy debate ?

[mark poulson]

17 hours ago, jigmeister said:

I make my blade baits using a Do-It Arky style jig mold and don't need to heat hooks or use connecting links . 

I used a TriSquare to mark a line at a 45 degree angle down from the top of one side of the open mold (to one side of the sprue hole ) to the center of the round recess in the cavity where the eye of the jig hook sits in the mold halve  . I then use this mark for reference to make a line across both mold halves with the mold closed . Now using a hacksaw with the mold closed and positioned at a 45 deg angle in a vice I sawed along the lines I marked into the mold just down to the middle of where the hook eye sits . The mold is soft and cuts very easy so go slow . (The mold still pours arky jigs just fine with this mod ) 

OK now the blade part . ( I think I read this tip on this forum about using a center punch and tapping it into a hook eye lightly to open a gap the eye just enough for the blade to slip thru .  ) Now you can place the jighook with blade attached into the mold and place the blade in the slot you cut and close up . The lead pours up to and covers the gap so the blade can't slip out so you don't need to closed the gap in the eye you create The only thing really different is painting the head WITH the blade attached but it's do-able . I have never had a hook eye fail or break as a result of stretching it open a tiny bit .

I was apprehensive at first about sawing into a perfectly good mold but it is still working perfectly years later .   I tried to be detailed enough for people to visualize this mod but a picture would have been easier . If anyone is interested I'll dig my camera out and post pictures 

I used to open the hook eyes with an awl, but the newer Mustad jig hooks are too hard and brittle. Only the 5/0 will open without breaking.

[mark poulson]

On 9/4/2023 at 12:10 PM, Dink Master said:

Make your own wire forms, that are way better then the open hook eye method.

Get some Do-it Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms (STW155) and don't look back.

https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Do-it_Poison_Tail_Swing_Wire_Form_100pk/descpage-DIOTSW.html

Use the wire forms with your favorite flipping or spinnerbait hook.

Thanks Dink.  I just ordered the smaller wire.  I have a shlod of left over trailer hooks, since I can't use them here on the Delta.

[21xdc]

I use end nippers and never break a hook, Unless they are forged.... So I don't use those.

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-7-in-End-Nipper-Cutting-Pliers-48060/203287749#overlay

 

[bassjiggin1955]

I started making these blade jig body's in 3/8 oz & 1/2 oz. several years ago. Best money I ever spent on a set of aluminum molds. 

[Jig Man]

Mike’s idea seems like it would give you more control and finessing it open.

[curt k]

Rapid heat and quench can be easy or difficult depending on what a guy is working with . As a metal cools from the glowing state it goes though many colors changes before it cools right down to the final color which is typically black . A guy needs to know what is the best color to quench on because each color will give a different hardness  . It isn't easy with thin metals since they cool down too fast and your going to need fast hands and really good eyes to follow the color changes .

The proper way with something like that is to use a furnace , hold them at high heat for a period of time then quickly cool them down . Except my guess is there won't be enough carbon left to get a proper heat treat for a second time

[mark poulson]

2 minutes ago, CNC Molds N Stuff said:

It occurs to me for the OPs purpose there may be a better solution.  Instead of annealing the hook eye to make it dead soft try heating it a little less to make it "less hard", but not dead soft.  

 

 

Bob, if I want to temper in my toaster over, what temp. and for how long do you suggest?

[curt k]

17 hours ago, CNC Molds N Stuff said:

I said I wasn't an expert, but I'm not an ignoramus either.  LOL.  Yep.  Sort of, except that its based on temperature.  Color is a "rule of thumb," not a rule.  
 

While I can appreciate a " lecture " as you put it , my reply was directed at the original question and not to question anyone's expertise .

choice of colour is not a rule but it is a rule of thumb when you know what hardness you want to stay at with a particular material . Why , because it is an indication of the temperature of that material at that specific time in the cooling phase . A quick example is : I used to make a lot of tools with t1 , straw was the colour of choice , quench before that and the tools were brittle and would snap , quench after and they would mushroom . A colour on either side of that didn't change things overly significant but there was a difference

In order to keep a consistency then it's important to find what colour works and always quench closest to that colour , otherwise some hooks will be too brittle while others will be too soft .

 

If a torch has been used on the hooks then a certain amount of carbon has been burnt off Using a torch to heat them up again is going to burn off more carbon , so I doubt there is going to be any consistency in trying to harden them if they harden much at all . The wire forms as previously mentioned seems to be the easiest and best solution

Edited September 17, 2023 by curt k

[mark poulson]

Thanks everybody.

I think I'll try reheating with my heat gun to see if I can get to the straw color.  Funny, that's the color we quenched to in metal shop, back in the 60's.

[curt k]

1 hour ago, CNC Molds N Stuff said:

P.S. I had to go look up T1. 

T1 is a highly common steel to use for a variety of tooling applications . If you look into your machinery handbook you will find a lot of information on the variety of tool steels , their general purposes along with their physical properties and compounds

[curt k]

8 hours ago, mark poulson said:

Thanks everybody.

I think I'll try reheating with my heat gun to see if I can get to the straw color.  Funny, that's the color we quenched to in metal shop, back in the 60's.

hope it works out .

I got curious about the hook dealy and there are a few manufacturing  videos on youtube that were interesting . The hooks go from heat to quench fairly quickly . Crude automation but it works and the timing isn't going to waiver much

[mark poulson]

I just made up some chatterbaits with the 5/0 hook eyes heated to cherry red, and then allowed to air cool, which was pretty quick.

The eyes opened and closed fine, and there was no breakage.  The hook eyes were hard to close.  Same with the 4/0 hooks.  The 3/0 hooks broke half the time.

I tried tempering some of the hooks at 350F for an hour, and they all broke.

I'll try the heat gun next, and report back.

[Jig Man]

I hope you get it worked out to your satisfaction.  I can’t get fish around here to hit a bladed jig very often.

[mark poulson]

Update:

I tried tempering the 5/0 stock Victory jig hooks with my 1000 degree heat gun, and the eyes still snapped.  Same with the Mustad hooks.

So I used the propane torch to get the hook eyes red hot, let them cool on the metal tray I use under my lead pot  when I pour, and then opened the eyes with an awl, driven through the eye into a piece of plywood.

Then I loaded the hooks into my jig mold, and poured six 1/2oz heads.

I powder coated the heads at 350 for 45 minutes, added my skirts, and crimped on the chatter blades.  No breakage, and the eyes were hard enough to close to make me confident that they wouldn't open up on a fish.

I don't know if it was the hot lead, or the baking at 350 when I powder coated, but something worked. 

I didn't try any 4/0 or 3/0 hooks, since I don't need any smaller hooks for my chatterbaits.  If I do, I'll report back on what works, or doesn't.

[Dink Master]

Bump

[bassjiggin1955]

There are way easier ways to build chatter baits than doing what your doing mark. But then again 21xdc seem to be the expert.

[bassjiggin1955]

Two items i use that make up my blade bait bodies if you dont have a mold with bait keeper just add a wire bait keeper the third item used. Simple & easy. Use a sparkie head doit mold for the body make a great blade bait body with three item shown. Again simple fast easy.