GB GONE Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Subject: Patent Infringement The Sweet Beaver has patent pending status which your bait is infringing on. If you do not want any legal complications and penalties in the future I would seriously reconsider the sale of this product and the removal of the misleading advertisement from your website. Your company information will be passed on to my attorneys of Weiss Moy & Harris in Scottsdale Arizona. Feel free to contact me at anytime Andre Moore 480-315-1550 Owner of Reaction Innovations and the creator of the original Sweet Beaver. I'm not sure it is authentic as the email address was kinda funny... just curious!!! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 I don't think I would be too worried at this point. I would however remove Sweet Beaver from the discription at the site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Jim, Have you contacted Mr Moore yet to verify the validity of that e-mail? Like you, I do not know what to think of it, but renaming a bait seems the best way to handle this situation and put it behind. Precautions have been taken on my behalf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsworms Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 I received a similar email a couple years back for using the name "Zipper" in my auctions. I changed the name to "Zip" worm and there is NOTHING they can do about it now. So........Travis is right. Best advise is to dump the name Sweet Beaver or Sweet Beaver "type" bait. You CAN, however, say something in your description like "if you like the Sweet Beaver, then you'll love this bait". Again, they can't touch that. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlybass Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 I am not a lawyer(but I did stay at....).Smells like smoke,seems like a scare tactic.How many beavers does he need to sell to sick his lawyers on you?Give him what he wants and then give him more -stiff competition!I would suggest you change the name and if your bait is a dead copy-modify it.Cut the little nibs off the wings?Better yet make it better.Softer,more colors,better scent,more salt or better pricing.Say "compare to major manufacturers items."Be careful using a similiar sounding name.As far as creature baits go, the beaver has a fairly unique profile/visual.Then again,is the Beaver a Brush Hog?Didn't Mann's make the mosquito hawk before that?Before that was a "chicken foot" or maybe it was called a devils tongue.I really do respect someones "innovation" but do a search on Reaction Innovations and see how many of his baits are truly innovative and how many are a lightly modified copy of another manufacturer's item?That is the lure industry.Seems like the pot calling the kettle black.The only lure patent that I know of that has been successfully defended was Gene Larew's salt injection process.Note how the same patent number appears on various manufacturer's packages?That is Larew's patent.Process being the key word.Name and trademarks are defendable too but designs are very hard to defend because it requires complete uniqueness.Then again you can never be absolutely sure how the law will go.Now that I think about it I am going to have to inform Reaction "Innovations" to stop using "Sweet Beaver" as I have been calling my wife that for 24 years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsworms Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Now that I think about it I am going to have to inform Reaction "Innovations" to stop using "Sweet Beaver" as I have been calling my wife that for 24 years! I do believe that is one of the funniest things yet!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigZ Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 I personally don't see how this guy can whine about his bait too much...I thought "Imitation was the finest form of flattery..."? For one thing, that bait is made to mimic a crawdad, which is unpatentable by law as it copies nature. The original beaver is also fully round, injection molded and sold in fancy bags with hot looking cartoon chicks on it. It would be worthwhile to check and see if the patent is actual or just applied for (pending). If the name is copyrighted and you use the same name for it, they can go after you for that, but it's doubtful he'd get anything more than a cease and desist order against you. That would be a waste of money and time.I don't think you're stealing his sales as it's a different bait entirely, being flat on one side and probably gliding better...LoL. The original ones work best if you cut em down the middle and dropshot them...2 baits for one, he'd probably get bent about that too! A point of interest too is that if he just sent you an email without a trackable routing (i.e. responder reciept), you can just tell him to pick two of his favorite words from the english language and chew on them for a while because he can't prove that you actually read his mail...unless he reads T.U. LoL ;^) You could call it "Sweaty Beaver" or "Splittail" and probably still be OK by the eBay rules....LoL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojo Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 I think I'll just call mine the "Beets Weaver 9.0". Should take care of any infringement issues, ya think? That letter/email sounds like it's the name that he's sore about. Don't see anything in that short blurb that mentions the design at all. BTW, how'd he find your website so fast Jim? You just posted it didn't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 This site is so full of inovative people that it would not surprise me that large manufactures are silently scanning everything we do here for ideas and infringements. I would not be surprised that sometime in the future you'll see some of these ideas on the market under another name or see a patent get issued to someone other than the person who came up with it. After all; at the level of a national supplier we are talking large amounts of $$$ and that is all that makes their worlds go around. "Not personal; just business". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted February 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 I did respectfully reply to his email explaining I would change the name and give reference to his patent pending if I used any quotes regarding "If you like the Sweet Beaver...". I also replied that I would reference I have no affiliation with Reaction Innovations or the Sewwt Beaver product. That will end it. I do have respect for ideas and products individuals or companies develop however Nova makes a great point...how many TU (and other people) have been ripped off by big companies stealing their ideas with no remorse or compensation!!! If my few sales are hurting the company, get ready for another belly up bait maker!!! Oh yeah...I bet onlybass could get a "class action" on that suit !!!!! Jim PS If he saw my baits, he might want me to keep the name....They look pretty good!!!!!! IMHO !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicBob Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 First of all you cannot infringe a "pending" patent. Until it issues it has absolutely no legal standing. Keep in mind however that if and when it issues you may have to desist. Secondly, patents have absolutely nothing to do with copyrights or trademarks, therefore unless "Sweet Beaver" is trademarked you can call your lure whatever you want. Finally I reccomend that any determination as to whether you are infringing (if the patent issues) should be made by a competent attorney and not everyone's .02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigZ Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 On the Reaction Innovations website it says, and I quote 'The bait's tail pinching action sinulates a crawfish like no other soft plastic' Since you can't patent anything that simulates nature, I fail to see where this could go legally for just the bait. As far as copyright or trademark, I would be wary, it's a lot cheaper to get a tm or c on a name than it is to complete a patent on an actual product and infringing on that could get you a big fat cease and desist letter from some attorney or other. Too many laws, too many lawyers. Can you tell I just spent the morning in court? LoL. Proper credit to website for quote in MLA format.... Bigfishtools.com. "Reaction Innovations". Friday, November 05, 2004. Tuesday February 15, 2005. http://www.reactioninnovations.com/sweet_beaver.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nova Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Did you win Z? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted February 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 I'm adopting mojo's name of Beet Sweaver!!! If that doesn't get you laughing...nothing will!!! jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigZ Posted February 15, 2005 Report Share Posted February 15, 2005 Ah yes, the pinnacle of societal boredom...I don't know if anyone ever wins in court unless they are playing basketball or tennis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrbass Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 How about rotten taco,sour puss, sweet lips ect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicBob Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Big Z, I keep hearing this "you can't patent anything that simulates nature" but it is simply incorrect. You cannot patant a "natural process, event or product of a natural event" but you absolutely CAN patent something which simulates nature if it does so in a new and novel way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsworms Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Too many rules and WAY too much red tape in my opinion. If the guy says he has a patent pending, good ethics will tell you to back off the name "Sweet Beaver", whether you can legally "infringe" on it or not. You may not like the letter from Reaction Innovations (I know I sure wouldn't! ), but the guy did come up with the name "Sweet Beaver". I say let him have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsworms Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 I reccomend that any determination as to whether you are infringing (if the patent issues) should be made by a competent attorney and not everyone's .02. Good point, but this is a message board. I believe we're all trying to help out here. When you ask a question like "anybody ever got this email?"......you can plan on getting a few responses and opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james bradshaw Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 I don't see why anyone would wan't to go to the trouble of putting a patent on a lure, if it can be easily modified by someone else to do the same thing. wouldn't it be a waste of money? I can see getting a copy write on a name of a lure or company, but not a lure. Unless the lure will only work in that patented design. I would think it best to just stay away from names of products, that other companies are using for their products. Less hassel that way. Don't give them a reason to question what your doing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJFishRGuy Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 Just to stick in my two cents, I have to agree with Magic Bob on most of his points. Unless you see the claims on his patent, you have no idea exactly WHAT he is patenting. You also have no idea IF the patent will EVER issue. The term "Patent Pending" has no real legal impact except to serve as a warning that infringers may be challenged IF the patent is ever issued. You can patent anything that performs a task in a new and unique way, regardless of whether it's mimicking nature. You will not be able to see his patent unless it issues; patent applications in the U.S. are confidential until and unless the patent is granted. If he also filed in Europe, you may be able to see what the patent purports to cover, since applications in Europe are public records. Someone questioned why you would patent a lure. Actually, you can't patent a lure, you can only patent a process, procedure, etc. For example, you can't patent a Sweet Beaver, but you could conceivably patent a "fishing lure that consists of two ribbed cylinders joined together side to side that results in a lure that falls flat and moves more water, thereby attracting bass in stained water". The important distinction here is that the claims in the patent must be very specific about what is covered. In my example above, changing the tail (assuming it's not mentioned in the patent claim) does nothing to minimize any patent infringement of a copy. The original letter actually says nothing about the name, although it would be much easier to obtain a registered trademark than a patent. I would change it just to cover your bases. Technically, you don't have to have a registered trademark to make a trademark defensible, although it does make it easier. Anyone can put a "TM" next to a name; all it means is "I claim this as my trademark". If someone has already registered that trademark or used it, and there is a possibility of confusion on the part of the consumer over whether they are buying the product from the registered trademark holder or you, a court can order you to change the name. A last comment... it's water over the dam, but in general you should never respond to the first inquiry of the type Jim received unless it's an "official" registered letter demanding that you cease and desist due to a specific violation which they cite. (In this case there is no patent so they can't cite it.) I have received approximately 12 informal demands that my firm cease and desist doing one thing or another concerning patents or trademarks over the years (for a series of industrial products that my employer sells). In every case, I ignored them and never heard from them again. It's when you get a letter with specifics that you really have to start paying attention, and then Magic Bob is again right; talk to a Patent/Trademark attorney. I see that I got really long-winded again, and I apologize. Good luck, Jim! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirmy Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 May I chime in? As a baitmaker, I think you all should respect him. He has come up with and marketed a succesfull product. Something you all may want to do in the future. Just listen to the guy's in Florida Weighing in and saying what they used which is probably why some of you want the mold or want to make the bait lol. Bassmaster magazine has an article by Ish Monroe dedicated to this bait. Now as for a fishermen, he lost my respect. I fish as a non boater, and last year at the US Open this yo yo took third and crapped on his non boaters at the podium, baitmaker yes, sportsmanship, no. I live for the day I draw him and hopefully if him or his spies are reading he will want me just as bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted February 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 This is what makes this board great...differing opinions (just opinions mostly!!) on rightm, wrong and otherwise!!! Thanks Red...and to everyone that contibutes. We are all entitled to our opinions on matters and hopefully we learn a little AND we stimulate more thoughts on important issues..... OK...now on to politics & religion !!!!! Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimrod Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 You're missing a perfect marketing opportunity here. Since, (if it's legit) someone feels threated by your "mimic", I'd be calling mine: "Sweeter Beaver" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cullin8s Posted February 16, 2005 Report Share Posted February 16, 2005 I think Salty Muskrat would be a good name Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
