Dyes vs Non Bleed Colorants

[Tiderunner]

I know the difference between dyes and colorants. I know that dyes bleed, and some more than others. What I'm trying to figure out is If a dye is used to blend with a non bleed colorant. Will there still be some color bleed from the dye? There is a color I am trying to blend mostly made from a non bleed colorant but I need a dye to tint it a tiny bit. It is a laminate  type bait.

Will that tiny bit of dye bleed into the second color used? Anyone here have any experience using the dyes and colorants together? I'm wondering is the non bleed will encapsulate, so to speak, the dye to prevent bleed. I guess the best way to find out is to go ahead and make a small number of baits. A small investment. But if anyone can answer that. Let me know

Thanks

[DaveMc1]

100% it will bleed. You will need to try to find a translucent pigment to use instead of the dye to make it non bleed, not always possible but if you can it will help greatly.

Edited November 5 by DaveMc1
added

[McLuvin175]

Mixed with other non-bleeds or not the dye will still bleed and migrate. No way around it.

[Tiderunner]

On 11/6/2024 at 7:21 AM, McLuvin175 said:

Mixed with other non-bleeds or not the dye will still bleed and migrate. No way around it.

The bigger question then is, to what extent will suck a tiny amount bleed?I have sent an email to Lureworks with these same questions. It's been a few days now. So I'll await their answer. The color in question is Cherry Red Dye 120

[Apdriver]

Pretty sure you just got their answer. 

[Les Young]

9 hours ago, Tiderunner said:

The bigger question then is, to what extent will suck a tiny amount bleed?I have sent an email to Lureworks with these same questions. It's been a few days now. So I'll await their answer. The color in question is Cherry Red Dye 120

He is lureworks. 

[DaveMc1]

On 11/7/2024 at 10:19 AM, Tiderunner said:

The bigger question then is, to what extent will suck a tiny amount bleed?I have sent an email to Lureworks with these same questions. It's been a few days now. So I'll await their answer. The color in question is Cherry Red Dye 120

Cherry Red 120 is a dye, it don't matter what you do with it, it's going to bleed, and more than just a tiny amount.

Edited November 8 by DaveMc1
added

[Tiderunner]

Thanks everybody. I guess there is no sense in experimenting with that bait, unless I make small batches to use right away.

And of course I probably still experiment. I've got nothing but time on my hands after the holidays. Gonna have to test different brands of plastisol, so it might be a good time to learn about dyes. What I can and cannot use then for, and the limitations. Never used them before.

In the meantime I'll keep looking for alternatives.

[Apdriver]

Maybe you can find a different colorant that will work for you. There’s nothing like putting in a bunch of work on a laminate and having it bleed. 

[Tiderunner]

Been there done that.Had a Watermelon Green , white pearl laminate. After curing for about 5 days. Went to the work bench to bag 'em up. And the WM bled into the white. No indication the WMG was a bleeder until I check other bottle from the same supplier that had this after the color..NB. The one watermelon didn't have it. I guess I never noticed because I usually only made solid WM. Only combo I've ever had bleed. Been looking around on the internet comparing colors side by side. I have found some that are close. But not transparent. Then again, you can't trust a picture either.

[Tiderunner]

The response from Lureworks.

 

 

Yes, any of our colorants labeled as “dye” will bleed or migrate through out a soft bait regardless of any other additives. Depending on your laminate combination it may or may not be that noticeable. But the tint side will loose some strength over time as the dye migrates to the other side trying to reach even disbursement in the entire bait. Meanwhile the other side will take in the dye until there is equilibrium in the concentration of the dye in the bait. Unfortunately there is no way around this. If you let me know what your trying to achieve by adding the dye I might be able to give an alternate recommendation.

 

[DaveMc1]

1 hour ago, Tiderunner said:

The response from Lureworks.

 

 

Yes, any of our colorants labeled as “dye” will bleed or migrate through out a soft bait regardless of any other additives. Depending on your laminate combination it may or may not be that noticeable. But the tint side will loose some strength over time as the dye migrates to the other side trying to reach even disbursement in the entire bait. Meanwhile the other side will take in the dye until there is equilibrium in the concentration of the dye in the bait. Unfortunately there is no way around this. If you let me know what your trying to achieve by adding the dye I might be able to give an alternate recommendation.

 

Yeah, McLovin175 up above works there and probably replied to your email as well LOL. Make sure to reply to the email, he's a pretty smart guy with this stuff. 

[mark poulson]

Many years ago someone here posted that the difference between colorants and dyes is the size of the pigment particles.  Is that true?

[DaveMc1]

13 hours ago, mark poulson said:

Many years ago someone here posted that the difference between colorants and dyes is the size of the pigment particles.  Is that true?

That is my understanding, Dyes are much smaller and able to migrate between substrates. 

[McLuvin175]

13 hours ago, mark poulson said:

Many years ago someone here posted that the difference between colorants and dyes is the size of the pigment particles.  Is that true?

No, particle size does not matter. Dyes are soluble in plastisol where as pigments are not. If you think of it this way:
-Pigments are like adding sand to water. Wont dissolve, wont move, the same as when you add it.
-Dyes are like adding sugar to water. Will dissolve, will migrate to reach equilibrium.

I know that is an oversimplification but it helps to conceptualize the difference between the two. Hope that helps.