Beaver catches fish!

[Senkosam]

A member on this site gave me a few of his Beaver lures to try out. I must say that the coloring and surface quality were superb. (Aluminum mold - 1 pc.) I was a little skeptical that a flat sided Beaver could catch fish and didn't get bit the first time out. Maybe that was because of the rigging and areas used.

I fused a piece of ribbed worm to the front of the bait to hold the plastic to the hook better. This time, I used a 2/0 wide gap hook with a 1/16 oz bullet wt., and got better action as well as more control at different depths.

Working the shallows aroung stick-ups and emerging pads, I caught three legal bass (1-2.5 lbs) and a crappie - all on the same lure. The hits were decisive and all fish swam with the lure in it's mouth before I set the hook. The softness may have had something to do with it.

If Del or Bob come out with a 2-part, I'll be the first in line to buy one. Until then, I will probably buy a pack from tacklewarehouse.com and copy the body using Durhams in a 2-part mold. I might even copy the one I have and over-pour to thicken the body. The picture shows the fusion of a worm cut down the middle and fused to the front end.

The action was superb and very weedless - a must in my tackle box.

Note: Andre Moore stated on BASS Central that going after knockoff companies would take more time and money than it was worth and won't even patent the design considering the cost and time to do so.

[Mojo]

Note: Andre Moore stated on BASS Central that going after knockoff companies would take more time and money than it was worth and won't even patent the design considering the cost and time to do so.

Now THAT is some interesting news...

[GB GONE]

Sam:

I saw him on BASS Center. Are you sure he said that??? I reviewed my tape (yeah...I tape all the shows ) and he didn't say those exact words all though I did get that impression from his tone and wording. Was there a different interview with him that I missed?

I just bring that up because I know he has sent written correspondence to mold makers. I received an email from him that was not real nice. I have not seen the letters but I can't imagine they are nice and cordial.

He may still have a claim and may decide to spend the $$$$ to enforce it. I hate to be on the "other" guys side but until the fat lady sings...it ain't over!!!!

Jim

BTW...these baits do catch fish. I will post some results after this weekend with pics as I'm heading to a great "flipping" lake to rip some lips!!!

[Joe S.]

Never saw an original beaver, but since the molds most of us use are flat on one side they are different correct? so can they still pursue you for that if it is not the exact replica of there bait? and as long as you call it something different?

[Senkosam]

Jim, maybe it was Loudmouth bass that he was interviewed on, but I took away the idea from his statement that it would cost thousands to patent his lure as well as years to do so. By the time he got the patent, sales might have cooled off considerably and the money not well spent, especially if it will cut into the million or so profit from current sales.

The flat sided design is a minor modification, but the surface texture and profile are almost exact. The expert on this site could shed some light.

Again, salted stick baits are produced by the millions (Stiko a prime example), but I don't know if GY can claim infringement, even if he had ever patented the Senko.

I made a reasonable copy this am and was quite pleased. I added garlic salt and more softener and used Durhams for the mold. Not as pretty as the samples I received, but the design works and will catch fish!

I'll try them this afternoon.

[pourboyplastics]

Senko,

Was talking to del yesterday and he is in the process of making a 2 piece beaver mold, not sure when it will come out. He also told me about Andre not putting a patent on the sweet beaver, which was a big concern to me since I pour so many beavers.

Here's a little picture of what I have been pouring lately. (about 1500 in this picture)

[Senkosam]

You have been busy!

No patent, no fuss, no muss.

I like the colors. Keeping in line with the naming at Reaction Innovations, my colors are: Clap Green, Lower Unit Black, Puss-Pot Pink, VD yellow and In-flammed Purple.

(Got a small bass on my rootbeer/ marigold flake beaver yesterday, but I've got to make the body a little thinner and not add salt. The action-concept is for maximum flapping of the paddle tail and body. The body was too stiff and moved more like your average craw, with only the paddle and arms flapping, as compared to the beaver-creature's entire body motion. And for that, the plastic must be very soft!)

[Mojo]

Pourboy, how much time do you have in 1500 beavers?

[pourboyplastics]

Hi Mojo,

1500 beavers is a full day of pouring with me and my partner, 3 sta-warm pots and a few lee pots. Actually takes longer to package them, then to pour them.

No salt in my baits and they are pretty soft but that is what everyone in Socal wants.

[GB GONE]

So will everybody "ditch" their one sided molds for the 2-sided??? I'm sure you guys have a good bit of $$$$ wrapped up in your molds/

I think we need to get BigZ and Bob to retrofit a top for our existing molds!!! I know Z can design that easy.

The only part that really needs to be 2 sided is the ribbed area. The flappers and tail could remain flat. The sprue could be made into the "new" top as you would only have that small cavity to fit..

Just a thought :idea: !!!!

[GB GONE]

BTW:

Andre may decide to stake his claim if the beavers come out in 2 part. Think about it...3 X the damages automatically !!!

If he could track all the sales on Ebay and websites...he could cover his legal fees and filing fees easily..

Not that I think he will but.....Some people do things for the point of it, not the $$$$. He seems like he might just be that kind of a guy!!!

JM2Cs!!!

Jim

[Joe S.]

I actually like the fact of the flat side, I wouldn't ditch mine, less plastic for a better hookset but still meaty enough to be durable.

[Mojo]

If anyone goes to the 2 sided mold when it comes out I'll be buying your old, one-sided molds at 25 cents on the dollar. So give me a holler when you're ready to sell!!!

I call dibs!!

[GB GONE]

Will the prices go up as you will definitely be using more plastic to pour your bait..OR will it go the way other bait companies do it....lower price or stay the same but just less baits in the bag!!!???

Jim

[pourboyplastics]

Most of the people I talk to don't care about the flat side, and I don't see us going to 2 piece molds when they become available. Much more time consumming to pour double and triple pours with 2 piece molds. I just need my 3.5" and 5" molds to show up.

[Senkosam]

Today I poured a thinner beaver with more softener and tilted the mold toward the hook-insert end for a better hook-holding piece of slightly thicker plastic. One fish/one lure may be a problem for sales if the hook insert, end is too thin. The rest was thin and had great action, resulting in 4 bass this pm, on one lure.

I don't think I'd be interested in a 2-part mold because the whole idea is for a creature bait that undulates from head to paddle-tail tip and the best way to achieve this action is with a flatter, thinner bait.

The reason Mad Man Craws suck is because the realism of a copy-of-nature resulted in a bulky form, killing the action. The Beaver has an action that's the closest thing I've ever seen to the motion of a backward-swimming crawfish and it's pancake design is the main reason. Sticks are probably better, fully round, but not this lure.

If I can immediatley catch fish on something I just poured for the first or second time, it's a keeper!, and if it ain't broke ......

[BigZ]

there are a few ponds out here I won't fish without a mad man craw on a jighead, fun fun fun flippin' in the timber.

[crkoester]

Ever considered....

... that there might be something morally or ethically questionable about copying the bait design and selling it for a profit?

Whether or not Andre puts himself through crap and expense of doing anything about it, doesn't anyone feel a little bit bad about putting him in a position to even think about it?

I mean seriously - it's a novel, unique, effective design - he put 100's of thousands of dollars of his own money into development and production of his baits and founding his company, took all the risk, did all the work, and now that it's a hot bait some homegrown basement handpour guys want to profit by selling ripoffs on eBay?

I'm not on a soapbox here - this is open for debate - but all I hear is positioning and ideas about how one might get away with this, and no questions about whether it is OK or not.

And no, the "well everyone else does it" or "this has been going on a long time" arguments are NOT valid. Nor does the "he makes enough money already" hold any water.

I am referring to manufacturing baits that are fundamentally copies, and selling them to the general public - not pouring baits for your own use.

Doesn't anyone have just a LITTLE bit of a problem with this? If I was in Andre's shoes I'd damn sure be sending out some sternly worded emails and C&D letters, if not writing a big check to my lawyer to get something done about it.

Can you honestly say that if you were in his situation you wouldn't be pretty dang irritated? Would you be wrong to feel that way?

Anyone??

Chris Koester

[D.J.]

You have a valid point, however I think the main reason we pour these knock off type baits is to get colors and different softnesses than the original product can deliver. If somebody wants a beaver or senko in a certain color not produced, I don't have a problem making it for them. Just my two cents.

[pourboyplastics]

I also see your point crkoester. The reason I pour is for the larger color combinations and softness you cannot get with these injection molded baits. Also all the tournment fisherman here in Socal use hand pours and never buy the hard injection stuff most mass production companies offer. They claim there baits are soft but they are not even close. Just my thoughts.

[Mojo]

This is a quote from someone on another board that I visit. It pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject.

Begin quote

Exactly how can one company knock off another? The Zoom patent covers the foot of the frog that they knocked off from prowler lures buzz worm, http://site.iwebcenters.com/proschoicelures/catelog_i1099915.html?catId=6328

This is why we can make a copy and we can improve on the original, as far as knock offs go we all knocked off the screwtail worm, we all knocked off the grub, we all knocked off lizards from someone, V&M made the first french fry, Zoom knocked it off called it a centipede.

Prowler designed the buzzworm Zoom knocked it off and called it a Speed Worm. Producto lures patented a shad body with the buzz tail on it. Zoom was aware of both of these but followed through with their patent. This is why we can sell it, they would lose in court and pay damages. Prowler lures also designed the chunks that Zoom is selling as their jig trailers as of today. Zoom also knocked off the Bass Assassin, split the tail and called it a Fluke. Odds are you are buying knockoffs if you are buying any Zoom products. I don't have a problem taking a bait trying to improve on it and selling it. Do you think all of the jigs in your box are from the inventer of the jig? Or spinnerbaits? Or hooks? No.

Zoom z- nail knock off

Zoom fluke knock off

Zoom centipede knock off

Zoom screwtail worm knock off

Zoom trick worm knock off

Zoom grub knock off

Zoom speed worm knock off

Zoom chunks knock off

Zoom tube knock off

End quote.

Essentially, if you are pouring worms out of a mold that you purchased, you are copying someone else's bait. Most of us here started pouring worms as a hobby, or because we couldn't find a particular color in a style of bait that we liked. It grew into a way to make some money on the side, in order to pay for materials and supplies. We won't get rich doing it. It's something that we love to do.

By the way, Andre used some or all of his winnings from his first tournament win, about $210,000, for the start up of Reaction Innovations. So I doubt that he dropped "hundreds of thousands" in the development of the product. As far as production goes, I would agree with you. When your selling $200,00 in baits a month you have the money to put back into production. That only makes sense.

[GB GONE]

crkoester:

Not to be high and mighty...and never for me to pass judgement but do you research all the baits you fish with to be sure they are the originals and not a knock off??? What about the reel, line, swivels, hooks, weights????

Andre and ALL angler that have ever fished OR won any money in a tournament did it with a knock off of another product. Whether it be the line, reel, rod, baits, motor, boat style, weights, etc.

Just curious, do you make or design any baits???

If so, you may see that even if we knock off another bait, our baits come in colors (and we use packaging that don't offend my 4 year old son or other female anglers out there!!!) and can be custom flaked, scented, etc. well beyond what the beavers can.

I did send an email to Andre Moore explaining how anglers were looking for other colors, etc. and that his "patent pending" on the flirt tail has been produced in Japan for about 12 years!!!???...I received NO reply!!! Isn't that sporting of him!!!!

Hope you supprt RI and have to explain to your daughter what a "sweet beaver" is someday or you fish "white trash" color. RI's founder is a loudmouth, rude angler who sets POOR examples for young anglers in the way he conducts himself inside the boat and out...just ask ANY co-angler that has had to suffer in his boat!!!

Senko's are copied day in and day out...Yamamoto says, let them do it. My baits are better and anglers will see that.

I think my baits are better than the sweet beaver and no I don't think that they are exact copies. I have anglers that have used both and only want to use mine!!!

Just my 2 cents

Jim

PS...If you make a living doing ANYTHING, you are probably reproducing, duplicating, or somehow ripping off someone in this world for something they created and are not getting paid rightfully for. If you aren't doing it, you are doing it for your BOSS!!!

[crkoester]

I appreciate the discourse on the subject, and I'm not passing judgement on anyone or trying to call anyone out. But the excuses don't fly....

Your replies are all still obvious versions of the "everyone is doing it" or "this has been going on for a long time" arguments that I expressly disqualified in my initial post. Try again.

As for the personal insults you had for Andre, I disagree. I happen to be a co-angler who has shared the boat with him, and I thought he was cool. He's definitely a bit brash and outspoken, and definitely a goofball at heart, but I liked his personality - how many more "Well, God really blessed me with these fish today, and it was His Will for me to do well in this tournament" types do the pro bass circuits really need? No he's not a close personal friend of mine, and I have no obligation to defend him personally, but your comments have absolutely no bearing on this subject - just another attempt at a justification for why you feel it might be OK to rip him off. Would it somehow be more wrong to rip him off if he were Jay Yelas or Mark Davis?

This thread isn't about him, or even about the Sweet Beaver or anyone else's bait. It's about whether or not it's right to blatantly reproduce somebody else's unique and novel design and take advantage of their hard work to make your own profit.

I don't think anyone, Andre included, would have a problem with you pouring some customized Beaver-type baits for you and your friends to use. But commercial, for-profit ventures are another story altogether. Modifying consistency, color, etc does not a new product make.

Try writing an operating system copied exactly after Microsoft Windows, but change some of the colors and buttons, and add a few different functions. Then list it for sale on eBay under a new name.

Or go out and manufacture a vehicle based on the Corvette blueprints, but offer it in special colors, with all-wheel-drive and special door handle and headlight styling and a turbocharged Toyota engine. Call it the "Schmorvette" and open up a chain of dealerships.

See what happens.

FYI - $210,000 IS "hundreds of thousands" of dollars. Regardless of semantics, a tremendous stake of cash and hard work undoubtedly went into Reaction Innovations. Sorry you don't like their name, but that is simply marketing, period. If you lose sleep over stuff like that you must NEVER watch TV, read the paper, or peruse the internet (whoops...).

Chris

[Mojo]

Someone's losing sleep, but it doesn't seem to be over his choice of website styles. It seems to be over other peoples "copying" baits.

BTW, did you come on this board to share in the cameraderie of luremaking, or to start the great debate on the injustice of replication???

Why would you join up and start chastising us about how we choose to enjoy our hobby?

4 posts and you're already in the thick of it. I've given my opinion, and that's all you'll hear from me on the subject. I have better things to do with my time.

Oh, and one more thing. Why don't you finish filling out your profile? Everyone that's participated in this post has a completed profile. If you're really serious about participating tell us a little about yourself.

[GB GONE]

Amen!!!...give advice or information or.........

Jim

Anybody that doesn't want there "inventions" copied would be smart enough to do due diligence like MS or other companies have. They take care of things up front, not whine like babies on national TV after the fact!!!