charkins Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Wow! My monitor was so hot it burned me when I touched it. One good thing about this bunch is that most are willing to share their opinion. Cal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senkosam Posted May 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 The question is, "is it unethical to copy and then sell another's lure design?" It depends on if a patent exists. If not, any of us has free rein to make as an exact copy as possible and sell it. That's the American way, regardless of whether the original is modified or improved. Lurecraft has copied over 130 soft plastic lures in the form of his silicone molds. Of course, they are one sided and result in a lure that is not completely round or textured on all sides. But the designs are obvious. Is Dave (or Bob or DelW) an acomplice in the reproduction and eventual sale of specific designs by the end user? If one of us wanted to buy the rights to a lure design from the individual or company that designed it, but had no patent, what is it we would be buying, to be ligit? Rights have to be paid for.This applies to scientific discoveries or a new process (i.e. Gene Larew's salt injection). No patent, no exclusive rights of ownership. As was stated, every lure category came from somewhere and every lure type has been copied, at one time or other, by every manufacturer in the business. Most products world wide, have been copied and repackaged. Some have been improved upon, many are duds, but that's part of commercial enterprise. Doing it first, doesn't mean doing it with finality and attempting to copy an original, may not be anything even close to the original (ie. LC's Senko mold, especially the first ones no way produced a stick that acted or looked like a Senko!) Ethics don't have much to do with copying and then selling a lure concept because no lure acts exactly like any other that's very similar in design. A skirted jig can be made in many different ways, but the original design and overall concept, is just the beginning of the creative process that will evolve this lure into it's many changes. It's no different than the way Creme worms branched into a thousand other designs. The Sweet Beaver comes under the creature bait concept. The thin, over-sized, paddle tail was added to a ribbed grub by Riverside baits a few years ago and was called the Beaver Tail grub. They also designed a hula grub with the same oversized thin paddle tail. If Andre modified these baits and added a few appendages, was he unethical for doing so and then making a million from stolen ideas? No, for the simple reason that his bait looks and acts differently, the same as any knockoff on this site looks and acts differently than either lure. I sleep fine knowing that the lures I may sell are still unique, though similar to another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsworms Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 The way I see it....... If Andre really IS doing over 200,000 in sales each month, it doesn't matter what anyone on this site or Ebay does as far as copying his bait. You are not going to hurt him financially. You might "spread the wealth" a little, but you are not going to take any food from his plate. If his beavers are on backorder, he can't handle the orders anyway. Why not give fishermen more options?? Same thing goes for Senkos. Yamamoto will never suffer a financial burden because of others knock-offs. There will always be those diehard fans who believe "nothing beats the original". Therefore, they will always have more than enough business. Now I'm one of the few soft plastic guys left who chooses NOT to make a Beaver copy, simply because there's too many guys doing it now. I believe that one day this fad will pass, just like all bait designs eventually do. For those of you who ARE doing well with your copies while this bait is hot.......well it's a free country. America is all about free enterprise. Andre should have thought about this when he chose not to patent the Beaver in the first place. Just my novel for the day. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crkoester Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Good thread, guys. Despite a few folks who were tempted to take this personally, it wasn't intended that way. You'll get no holier-than-thou from me, but you will sometimes get a little devil's advocate. The last few posts made some very good points - I agree that imitation is the price you pay for not doing due diligence and seeking legal protection for your product. This is a big part of what drives our capitalistic society, in which I am a huge believer. I also believe Andre is lucky thus far to only have to get mad at the handpouring mad scientists - I mean, how much longer could it possibly be before YUM or Bass Pro Shops starts packaging their Beaver imitations? I've been told that Culprit already has one in the works. As far as being criticized for making 4 posts, I haven't been able to participate much because I am not an experienced luremaker, and I don't have a lot to add just yet. I do enjoy the site a lot though, and I've learned a lot. I'm pretty impressed by most of you guys - you make some awesome stuff. A lot of the things you do have a pretty steep learning curve, and these forums can definitely smooth that out a lot. Don't take my stirring the pot as negativity or criticism - just seemed like one important perspective was completely absent from this discussion, so I offered it. Thanks to all who participated - especially those who were able to keep their panties unwadded. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senkosam Posted May 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 It is a subject that has been brought up before and some have stated their irritability at having Dave from Lurecraft make and sell molds from their ideas. It's unrealistic to believe that a good idea won't eventually be run with by others, regardless of how much r&d went into the original. Poor knockoffs die off, quality knockoffs and originals may last a few years and continue to be sold. Anglers are fickle when it comes to tackle and are always looking for a bargain or unique lure. It's the capitalist way to offer that. Why pay 70 cents for a Senko that lasts for one or two fish, versus any of the knockoffs that last for half a dozen or more fish. Mine do and my conscience is clear because I believe GY is gouging the customer, considering his overhead and flimsy sticks. The Senko design will never die and may outlast most similar sticks well into the future, but it has limited uses as far as the salted stick goes. This is just one example of why there should be less limits placed on lure makers versus a few other product producers and is almost impossible to win in court, considering what was stated concerning lure uniqueness. For Andre to threaten legal action without due diligence, speaks for itself and for the person that has borrowed many previous designs and comes across as holier than thou, I say, 'shame on you'! RI has been around for a while and finally has come up with a winner. Good luck to anyone that offers us anglers something innovative to catch fish, within specialties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojo Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 There is an abundance of posts on this board on this very subject. Don't feel like you're the first person to ever bring it up. Not only has this subject been broached and discussed to no end, it's been brought up in almost every forum on the board, as you would have seen had you used the search function available at the top of this and every other page. http://www.tackleunderground.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=5431&start=0 http://www.tackleunderground.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=5159&start=0 http://www.tackleunderground.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=5156&start=0 http://www.tackleunderground.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=4865&start=0 And believe me, my panties are anything but wadded up. There are plenty of fishing forums out there on the great WWW that are available for posting rants about any subject you can think of. I have learned more about the hobby of luremaking from this board than any other hobby I've pursued over the years, and that's more than just a few. We still don't know anything about you or where you're from.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cummins_4x4 Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Sorry there is some very bad logic being thrown around here. The best example is the following quote: "Try writing an operating system copied exactly after Microsoft Windows, but change some of the colors and buttons, and add a few different functions. Then list it for sale on eBay under a new name. " Bill Gates is nothing more than a successful theif! He stole the ideas from many little guys and ground them into the dust. He has had better legal council, more business acuem, and a more ruthless personality than those whose shoulders he climbed up the ladder on. Oh and by the way, this is not from conjecture. Microsoft has had sanctions imposed upon it here, not very successfully due to corrupt courts. But very successfully in Europe. I've had several very good ideas stolen from me personally, and marketed by others. I can think up more. But now I am more unwilling to show certain people things. I won't cast my pearls before swine. And say I do stumble across another acorn, I will market it and not let others do it first. I just won't worry about people ripping off the idea, people will period. I will make a superior product, people recognize quality. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone in this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 Hey Chris....sorry if my "thong" (hope vanillagorilla hasn't trademarked that name for his bait yet ) got in a wad over this post but it has been beat to death repeatedly... This is an open forum and all topics are fair game!!! Even some we may not want to talk about or think about. You made some real valid points as do others. Glad this forum is here for these discussions and that we are able to give our 2 cents on topics that are obviously controversial. Now if we could all put our heads together, we could make something that others want to duplicate... Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 PS....back to the original topic of the "beaver type" baits catching fish...Scored 15 nice fish flipping docks with the split tail bait in fresh roadkill camo.... My 4 year old said " Man dad..thats the most fish I've ever seen you catch." Everybody is a critic !!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raul Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 Isn?t this the same guy ( crkoester ) who smeared crap all over a poor guy from the other side of the Pacific in the hardbaits forum ??? It sure sounds like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james bradshaw Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 Who is this guy? [crkoester] It looks like to me, He is in the wrong hobby! Or maybe just a little snooper, for another bait company. The reason I say that, is he just gripes about things that take place in businesses all over the world. And he doesn't even post a real name, location or anything to tell us more about who he is. What is the big deal that beaver lure is just a copy of several other ideas from other bait companies. Like the body of it is a zipper style body. The tail is a flat beaver style tail that can be used with or without a split down the middle, wich is nothing new. the only original part is the little flappers on the side. maybe someone should be mad about the fact that reaction inovations has used someone elses ideas to profit from. His ball breaker is spawnwd from the Senko! His drop shot jig is just a rubber hackle jig. shouldn't someone be pissed about that????? Almost all inventions, and Ideas come from someone elses ideas. If we couldn't use someone elses ideas we wouldn't get any where in this world! Just my two cents, Hopefully it didn't piss off too many people!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senkosam Posted May 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 Good points Jim, but I think I said the same thing in my reply. The original post a month ago was regarding whether patent infringement was a possibility after Andre threatened a law suit against one of our members. Someone with patent experience shed some light on the consequences of a proper patent, but what was not brought up by the patent expert, was the fact that the Beaver was never patented or even patent pending, thus, case closed. It was insinuated that we always have to look over our shoulders anytime we copy and sell a lure. I think the concern was as much overkill as in this post. The only thing I've seen go to court, having read the court transcripts, was the case of Larew vs. Yamamoto regarding GY's unlicensed use of salt injection. GY had to pay for his patent infringement, even though the reason was related to lure action and weight and not for taste, as was in the original patent. I think GY got screwed, but he did inject salt and his intent was hard to prove (to a nonfishermen jury I'll bet). I reproduced Zoom's margarita color (chart/ chart and black flakes) and caught 3 bass and 2 pickerel today on the same beaver. The last fish broke the line. I also caught 2 more bass on my rootbeer/ green and black flake beaver in heavy cover, taken on the hop. Anyone have the Smallie Beaver they want to sell? I need to make a mold for that one also. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raul Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 This is what I?m talking about: http://www.tackleunderground.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=5431 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodsac Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 This is what I?m talking about:http://www.tackleunderground.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=5431 Time out raul :!: Let's set things straight before this post goes any further. User crkoester doesn't have a single reply to any of the 5 pages of that thread?! As for your previous post Isn?t this the same guy ( crkoester ) who smeared crap all over a poor guy from the other side of the Pacific in the hardbaits forum ??? It sure sounds like him. Nobody smeared anyone. User rockhopper is very knowledgeable in the patent industry. He was invited to this site by the site owner. His purpose is to shed some light on the myths and rumors that are continually spread around the internet about patent laws. Being an inventor who owns patent rights' date=' he realizes the severity of patent infringement. If you take the time to read [u']all [/u]of his posts, you will see he clearly states that if the items do not posess a patent then you are free to copy them. That is the American way! Please do not come here and make personal attacks to other individuals on the forum. Especially if you are not willing to defend your remarks with some sort of explanation. Nowhere have you taken the time to explain why you posted what you did. All you have done is accuse someone of saying something they didn't Since this whole discussion was based on morals, maybe you will offer an apology? If not, that explains why you attacked someone who displays good moral beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuMMeRBaits Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 Man this has been a great message to read. Just to only add my 2 Cents, I think it's pretty funny someone mentioned on this about when BPS or some other company would come out with a beaver copy, well to me this bait in the below link sure has a familiar looking body on it. http://www.basspro.com/servlet/catalog.TextId?hvarTextId=58633&hvarDept=100&hvarEvent=&hvarClassCode=7&hvarSubCode=4&hvarTarget=browse I hope the link works, if not just check out BPS Web Site -> Freshwater Fishing -> Soft Plastics -> Craws -> BPS Flippin Craw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
earthworm77 Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 I'm going to stick with the 1 pc. I think that the 2 pc will be difficult to fill up the flaps and you likely will not be able to use salt with it. I have some paddletail grub 2pc molds which I love, the tail is much thicker around than the beaver flaps....it doesn't always work and the plastic falls straight down. With the beaver, the flaps are not straight down so pouring too fast will not fill them up. It is going to bring on some problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB GONE Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 I'm trying to engineer a "lid" for just the ribbed part of the bait. It will come out like the BPS flipping craw as only the body is 2 part and the claws, etc are flat on the bottom. I have been able to make a single "lid" that seemd to work OK with resin. I'll be putting up some pics of the mold and the resulting baits when I can... Think I'm going to still stick with the 1 part molds though... Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojo Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Man! How am I supposed to buy these old 1 piece molds cheap if everyone is keeping theirs?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
