Air Bubbles revisited

[GB GONE]

If you were pouring, this would be unacceptable to you .

There is nothing wrong with the plastic' date=' other than a few bubbles in a few batchs.

Delw[/quote']

There are WAY more than a FEW bubbles and I have emails and PMs from more than just 1 or 2 Calhoun's customers. Calhoun's needs to respond to this in some matter other than "humidity" and the like.

I'm trying to get this isolated and not totally trash the Calhoun's product here. There is a problem, it is not my location (others in the country are having the same problem) and it is not humidity...

Other plastisols from major manufacturers products are not reacting as my Calhouns does. I will post a picture of what a cup looks like after I cook a cup of each brand....I won't even post which is which but it will be VERY OBVIOUS!!!!

Jim

[Delw]

Delw

[GB GONE]

You and 2 other people emailed about a problem a few that I called that use 10- 20 gals a month have said it was not that bad and only was on a bucket not all ' date='but it didn't affect them due to they use pots , but yet you have received more emails and Pm's. why would someone complain to you about a problem and not the person they purchased it from.?

Delw[/quote']

I think that most don't say anything because they have been lead to believe that the bubbles are normal. That is what I hear over and over!!!You have even stated the bubbles are normal. I disagree totally with that!!!! Have you personally used any M-F, Lurecraft or Chemionics plastisol????

Maybe you need to re-read the posts as I have repeatedly tried to disprove it was humidity!!! From an earlier part of this post...I have conducted extensive trials with various plastisol samples...The results of MY OWN PERSONAL trials are that humidity is not causing my bubble problems but the microwaving process with certain plastisol does.

M-F super soft plastic DOES NOT bubble, Chemionics plastisol DOES NOT bubble, Lurecraft plastisol DOES NOT bubble!!!!!!!!!!!?????????? Calhoun's does!!!!?????????????????????????????????

I paid good money for a product that is, IN MY OPINION, inferior to the other plastisols on the market with regards to the usefulness of the product. bubbles are not the only issue with this bucket of plastisol I as have stated repeatedly. It does not thin and pour well. I can NOT get 4 good baits poured with this Calhoun's in a 2 part mold but with any of the above listed plastisols, I get 4 baits EVERY TIME!!!! The problem is with the plastisol!!! If I only poured 50 baits a week, I might say time for me to practice more. Most weeks I pour 500 to 800 baits... Tough not to get relatively good at what you are doing over a year of that kind of volume.

It is also unbelievable to me that guys have to pour a few baits to see if they are soft or hard or whatever when they get their plastisol. Shouldn't it be the same every time or real close????!!! Otherwise you have to add softener or hardener to make the plastisol the same as the last batch...

Like me, many do not want to totally trash Calhoun's plastisol as it has been a good product. However, I refuse to spend an extra hour or so during my pouring time scrapping bubbles and reheating and reheating and reheating and reheating. It is a WASTE of my time and my time is as valuable as anybody else's. To a hand pourre, time is money!!!!

I really did not see the value in spending more good money towards resolving the issue as you have stated in the past "a few bubbles are normal". I will be glad to send the whole freaking bucket and what is left back...It is inferior to me and will not be part of my bait making as my customers deserve better!!!

Maybe others will contact you, maybe not. That is up to them. If they can live with the scraping and reheating..so be it. I can't!!!

The issue has been resolved on my end by totally switching my plastisol to another brand that is reliable in its performance. My customers rely on me to give them a quality product in a reasonable time frame and with this batch of Calhoun's that was impossible.

I just refuse to let everybody be swayed into thinking the bubbles are normal as that may be true for Calhoun's product but it is certainly NOT true of other plastisol products on the market.

I'm glad that Calhouns is looking in to the issue however if you do a simple search on TU, you will find these types of posts from back in the beginning of this year and earlier!!! Where was the investigation then??? You posted in those areas so you were aware as well.

It is kind of a mute point to me now Del as I am happy with my switch. I hope the others that are experiencing the problems either speak up or switch to a another product to be more satisfied.

I am glad that there is a forum like TU to amicably discuss issues like these that will benefit all in the trade.

Jim

[Delw]

Delw

[GB GONE]

It does do good (especially in a public forum) in that everybody is aware that:

1. Bubbles are not normal in plastisol unless you introduce moisture into the plastisol as you described. Other than those instances, there should be no bubbles. Even with vigorous shaking M-F does not produce bubbles. Their packaging states "SHAKE WELL".

2. This forum is available to voice your opinions and allow for meaningful discussions. Right or wrong, all opinions are allowed as long as the opinion does not violate the rules of the board.

3. There are alternative products/methods available that work for others. I have bought 2 printer ink cartridges from the same store at the same time only to have one be bad or leaking in the pack. No matter waht a company does, products go bad at times. That is a fact of life with all products. Sometimes the reason they went bad can't be explained but the company should take immediate responsibility and resolve the issue with a replacement product. No discussions!!!

By far and away I'm not saying that I'm doing everything perfect. I have praised your products when they were good and been honest about them when they are not so good. Is that not what a customer should do???

The bottom line is that "the customer is always right" slogan has gone by the wayside in the majority of today's businesses!!! If a customer of mine posts, calls, emails a concern with my product, they either get a refund (no questions asked) or get a replacement. End of story!!! I don't insinuate that they aren't fishing them right or not holding the bait up to the right light for the color to look right. I work the details of their issue out after the initial problem is solved. Not somewhere down the road or after I have figured out what went wrong.

Not one time, on any forum, via email or during a phone call, did you offer me an exchange or replacement of the product. I bet the few that did contact you would have worked through the shipping costs etc. just to get product that would be useful to them. Instead, I have read about changing microwave times, Calhoun's is not really made for the microwave technique, mix the product right, etc. I'm sure you did not intentionally make us all feel like it was something we were doing wrong, but it sure came off that way. Replacement of the few products would have eliminated the need for this discussion all together.

If you look back however, I have posted this same information on YOUR forum that is monitored (you responded promptly) quite frequently. I didn't get any offers there either. just much of the same suggestions. None that changed the problem or resolved it.

In no means am I attempting to sway individuals to one product or another as everyone needs to make up their own mind what is right for them.

However, not doing your own due diligence with a product in a side by side comparison with other products of its kind is foolish at minimum. Especially if you care at all about providing your customers with the best product you can.

Jim

Pictures to follow in am.....

[bigbasser]

Jim, I too have had problems with my last batch of plastic. I got a one gallon barrel with a kit I bought from Del and the plastic was crystal clear and poured amazing. I ordered a 5 gal and it came loaded with bubbles. The 5 gal does still pour good but the bubbles are real annoying and time consuming. I also beleive it has nothing to do with humidity or mixing as I mixed the one gallon bucket many times with a drill mixer and there were still no bubbles. It has nothing to do with Del but I hope Calhoun's clears this up real soon. Jim, what plastic are you using now?

[GB GONE]

I use M-F super soft plastisol. I have cut my pour times in half and the baits do not even compare in softness.

Don't be suprised by the cost as my total for a 5 gallon container (that is square, sits on a shelf and has a nice spigot on it for extremely easy dispensing...no large hole is needed in the M-F container as you DO NOT need a squirrel mixer or drill, just shake and go!!!) is LESS than the cost of 5 gallons of Calhoun's to my door.

Shipping is only about $19.00 for me via M-F where it approaches double that with a 5 gallon of Calhoun's..

As I was filling up my ride today, I finally decided I was looking at this all wrong!!! Its all about the money, just like everything else. Us small potatoes guys don't buy enough plastisol to impact Calhoun's so an effort may be made but don't expect much.

I almost bought a 55 gallon drum directly from the factory but the sales guy did me a favor and never called me back in a timely fashion. A 55 gallon drum is LESS than $500 (by far I'm told) which would put it at much less than $10/gallon... Anybody buying their plastisol for that much????

I have gone through a 5 gallon container in about 2 weeks which is about normal for me BUT my time in the shed has decreased by at least 5 hours a week...Time is money...Spend both wisely!!! BTW...I never go off half cocked. I shoot to kill everytime...but I almost never take the safety off.

Jim

When you see the pictures I have, you will realize the difference in plastisol products. I put some plastisol from each company into see through containers to demonstrate. Calhouns separates like oil and vinegar in 24-36 hours. M-F's does not. If you shake oil and vinegar, it IMMEDIATELY starts to separate!!!! Surely this causes some of the problems and definitely causes the hard baits some guys report at the end of the 5 gallons. Incedible dtail to mixing is required for Calhoun's, this is not so with M-F. I am not the only pourer that has changed plastisol throughout the years. I urge you to read some of the posts in the "best plastic poll" above and also get a sample of other plastisol products prior to "going off half cocked"...What works/doesn't work for me may be different for you!!!

[GB GONE]

OK...Last post on this, I'm moving on...

I promised pictures of the various plastisols cooked however in fairness to all the manufacturers and in keeping with what I have been saying, everybody needs to get a sample of the various plastisols and see for yourself what is good for you.

How my plastisol is reacting may not be what you are seeing. I might be able to post up a picture of a bubbly mess and 20 others may be able to post crystal clear plastisol cooked.

My attempt to inform others and inquire about others observing the same phenomenom is not meant to destroy the reputation of one plastisol or another. They are just observations in hopes that other may think about what they are doing with their "hobby".

The one photo I will post is important as many have their plastisol in opaque containers and do not know what is going on inside the container.

Jim

[camrynekai]

I have been pouring since 1995 and I have used M-F, Lurecraft and Calhouns and here is my take.

I'll try to break down the qualities that make a good plastic.

Separation of raw contents.

1st. place hands down is M-F--------This stuff only needs a shake or two and your ready to go.

2nd. place goes to Calhouns----------------It does separate very fast...but for the most part it separates into two liquids that can be blended with about a minutes worth of work.

3rd. and this is definitely the worst ever is Lurecraft---------This plastic separates into two liquids and a hard concrete in the bottom. I have a 5 gallon bucket of this stuff that has been sitting for a year and it will need to be mixed at the paint shop with a industrial mixer for a half hour or so to be able to use it again.

Heat stability / Smoke.

1st. place goes to M-F------This plastic can handle some heat...not quite as good as Calhoun but its odor is by far the least offending.

2nd. place goes to Calhoun-----It can handle the heat with little browning, but its odor is very strong.

3rd. place is lurecraft's-----It can't handle the heat at all with out color fading and browning and don't even think of over heating this stuff...its a real smoker.

Pour ability / Clearness

1st. Goes to M-F----Whilie its not as clear as lurecrafts this stuff pours at a much lower temp allowing color and glitter to last and not needing any heat stabilizer is a bonus.

2nd. Place is Lurecrafts-----Very clear plastic if you don't over heat it and pours well...but it has no tolerance to over heating and will brown.

3rd place goes to Calhouns----Not quite as clear and even though it doesn't burn easily it needs more heat then the rest in order to pour in a Lee system, giving your glitter a run for its money.

Softness/Memory/Strength

1st. Ill have to give to M-F----Its softness is no match for others, has the lowest memory of the others, but its not as strong as Calhouns.

2nd. Place goes to Calhoun-----This is the king of plastics when it comes to making sticks but due to it pour ability issues in a Lee pot I have to give it a second.

3rd. place goes to Lurecraft----Mainly because its has the most memory by far compared to the other plastics.

Now onto bubbles.....To be honest I would laugh at you guys talking about bubbles in your plastic......Well I was mainly a M-F user but I was not impressed with the sticks that it made. I went out and purchased a gallon of Calhouns to try and the results were astounding. It was the answer I was looking for when it came to making a perfect stick bait. I then went and ordered five gallons and I was shocked to see how many bubbles it had.......I have been pouring for a very long time and have melted over 1000 gallons and I have never had a single bubble until my recent five gallon purchase of Calhouns. I can tell you this...Its not moisture in the mix....I went and added a water absorber used for Oils and fuels and it did not solve the problem...This issue with bubbles in Calhouns is with a filler that they are using and NOT moisture. I can add a cup of water to a quart of oil mix well and add a moisture absorber and suck every bit of water out in a day, I have had a moisture absorber in my Calhouns for two weeks and still no change... confirming a different sort of problem.

[GB GONE]

Tom:

I'm assuming you are referring to M-F's super soft formula in your post. Have you ever tried their other "not" super soft (can't remember what they call it now :grin: ..)???

I samples of that type made some pretty good sticks for me. Calhouns does make a great stick though.

If the darn bubbles didn't make the first couple float, it would even be better...

Jim

[camrynekai]

Hi Jim,

These findings were all done using super soft formulas only.

I have used M-F Salt water blend and Super soft but not the standard mix they have....gonna have to give it a try with the sticks.

[pourboyplastics]

Just my 2 cents on this matter.

I have been pouring for over 10 years and for the first 6 years I used only

Lurecraft and really didn't have a problem with it except for some scorching if you didn't use caution and some heat stabilizer. Like everyone else stated Lurecrafts Plastic does settle alot to the bottom so it is time consuming to mix it all the time. This is still a good plastic and the cost is very reasonable.

Just a few years ago I tried MF and Calhouns plastic to compare. I really think both are great products and I continue use Calhouns today. Both of these plastics didn't need nearly the setup time that was required with LC. I have never had a problem with bubbles with any of these products but than again all I use to pour are Pouring pots by Sta-warm and Lee. Maybe there are other issues when using Pyrex cups but I have no knowledge. The reason I still use Calhouns today is cost and availability, if bought in large qualities (55gals)Calhouns is still cheaper than MF. I still buy some Calhoun 5 gal buckets from Del-mart and everytime the plastic has been right on. The only plastic I buy is super soft and I add alot of softener to this, all the baits I produce are super soft which all my tournament pros want.

[camrynekai]

Take a worm made with all three different plastics and bend each worm gently and place in a bag for a few days. Then remove each worm and set in a pan of water.....then you tell me who's plastic is better. The bait made with Lure craft plastic will have what ever shape it had when laying in the bag, Calhouns will also have some bend to it but not nearly as bad....but the M-F bait will look as straight as it did when it left the mold. Now add the other benefits explained earlier and its a no brainer. A bent bait= poor action and an unhappy customer. When tacklelogic wraps were big it presented many problems to hand poured soft plastics....at least until M-F came around.

[Senkosam]

Thanks Camrynekai for the comparison. I too have gotten bubbles and foaming with my last 5 gal. batch of Calhoun's, but it's no different than my first gal. from Del. I thought that was normal. What do I know?

I have to agree, LC is the worst for smell, memory and heat sensitivity, though low on bubbles. You need a lot more softner to get it to equal Calhoun. I will order some M-F to compare and see if it produces the nice Beavers someone sent me, which were made with M-F.

The lower temp means better reheats and less glitter shrinkage. (Glitter shrinks from the edges inward for every reheat.) With Calhouns, I've never needed heat stabilizer and won't with M-F.

[UtahAngler]

Has anyone thought to ask if the problem with calhouns is in the packaging. Im seeing a lot of guys saying the one gallon buckets worked great but when they got the 5 gallon bucket is wasnt. Just a thought maybe the 5 gallon buckets they use have a film or something in them or something that is eaten away by the plastisol. I hate for Del to lose peoples business just remember hes a middle man not the maker. I also think that many many guys have purchased the product and just didnt know that there was a problem because they have no reference. I personaly thought I was doing something wrong until I seen that others were having the same problem. When its not an isolated problem and happens country wide then you have to look at the source first. Of course Del is going to stand behind the product because he has to sell it and refunds would be a killer for him to run through when its not something he has caused to happen. If you choose to use M-F like I plan to from now on or at least until they fix the problem, please dont stop buying Dels other products even though I dont know him we all need to stick together as sportsmen. I realize that making money off baits is the prioroty for business men but for us hobby guys we really arnt out anything except frustration.

[camrynekai]

Has anyone thought to ask if the problem with calhouns is in the packaging. Im seeing a lot of guys saying the one gallon buckets worked great but when they got the 5 gallon bucket is wasnt. Just a thought maybe the 5 gallon buckets they use have a film or something in them or something that is eaten away by the plastisol. I hate for Del to lose peoples business

You may have hit the nail on the head. And like I said earlier, Calhoun's plastic rocks when it comes to making sticks!

[GB GONE]

Great posts guys!!!!! You have said what I was trying to say all along!!!!

It is not Del, it is Calhoun's that needs to step up!!!! However, Del is the sole distributor of the product so there is some culpability there...

Del's other products are top notch and his service has been beyond superb!!!!

The other thing I have noted with the plastisol products is the finished product.....

If you take a bait made with all the plastisol products (don't include sticks here UNLESS no salt is included) that does not have salt in it and rig it up texas rigged.

The Lurecrat bait will hit the bottom, stand for a couple seconds and lay down, Calhoun's...same deal. M-F's bait will remain vertical FOREVER...

In the fishing world, this is what the angler needs!!!!! This is HUGE!!! If you are carolina rigging, this is what you need!!!! I my 7" worm trials, the M-F worms will out fish a Calhoun's bait 3 to 1.

BTW...Does everybody that uses Calhoun's figure the cost of softener in with the cost of the plastisol??? I mean it is costing you more than just the cost of the plastic if you have to add to it. I have tried adding softener to the M-F super soft but found you just don't need it!!! The baits are still softer than the Calhoun's with softener...IMHO

Jim

[camrynekai]

Hopefully Del will get it resolved ....I'm now sitting on 4.5 gallons of plastic that I can't really use. Looks like I have to place another order for some one gallon jugs and that sucks because of the cost involved. Also has anyone returned their unused plastic for exchange with one gallon jugs?

[GB GONE]

We all wish :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: The gallons seemed to be fine. Seems Calhouns should take all of them back and take care of it directly. That way Del isn't STUCK in the middle...

If enough guys would post up, we can get them to commit to something. I would cover the cost of shipping for sure!!!!!!

Jim

PS I have the number there, also the Sales Reps number...should I post it up???!!!!! We could all give them a ringy ding !!!!

[BassnG3]

Post it Jim!!! Squeaky wheel gets the grease. I can't believe all the users of Calhouns with the bubble issue. If enough call maybe we can get some results! I think the number is in an old post from a couple of years ago along with the salesman who handles this product for them..

Scott

[Delw]

Delw

[UtahAngler]

I will agree after using M-F I will never use calhouns again. I made the mistake of adding softener to the super soft M-F and it doesnt need any even with 50% salt. That there is less hassle. It pours better and smokes less. I guess some people will still use calhouns. That is fine. People need choices. The 5 gallon bucket I bought of calhouns will still work if I heat it in a hot pot and make sticks the bubbles float up and the baits turn out ok. I dont sell baits I just make them for personal use, give some to friends and to use with clients when I am guiding. So as long as I have confidence in them then thats all that matters. I will say that using actual senkos for guide trips was killing me especially when they get thrown on every fish that takes the bait. I am making sticks for a lot less and they will catch several fish without coming off. Some of my friends were skeptical that they would fish as well as the senko but when I caught more fish with my custom colors they were believers. Im thankful there is a forum for guys like us that love to make things. And a way to discuss the successes and failures so others can learn from it.

[GB GONE]

OK guys...from Del's point of view there are only 2 or 3 having problems....I will not reveal the names of people I have heard from, they need to post up if they want to be counted. It was not "tons" as Del quoted me but it certainly was more than 3!!! Since nothing is really being offered in the way of replacement, what is the incentive to call or email....Just to get ridiculed or blackballed???? Maybe if Calhoun's did the respectable thing and offered to replace, recal, whatever with the product, you would get a real count.. It should not matter however if 10,000 or 1 is having this issue. The customer should be taken care of...the company can figure out all the details later. In the real sense of the whole deal, it should be totally Calhoun's problem and not any of ours...

So.....

1) Can anybody that is having or had the bubble problem just post a note so we can get an honest count??? Or email Del...I would like to see the count here as well in the public forum notes...We could copy all the responses if this forum is not direct notice enough..

2) Will you also comment on if your plastic is, in YOUR opinion, useable to you as you thought it would be when you bought it. I for one did not expect to PAY FOR a bubbling mess. I did not know I would be required to cook, scrap, re-cook etc... Calhoun's or Del should post this information about how the product is going to be PRIOR to everybody spending good money. If the product is not made for microwaving, then put that on the label!!!!

I for one was going to let this die but I don't feel as though repeated posts about Calhoun's is looking into it, resolves anything for me. You all may be different.....My issue is inferior product that I paid hard earned money for that DOES NOT perform as it should...I see that the issue is just going to be left to be resolved through our total mass of responses or further actions....I find it very perplexing that Calhoun's is aware of the problem and working on it YET you say only 2-3 people have brought this issue up. Why would a HUGE comapny like Calhoun's be concerned with just 2-3 emails when SO MANY others are just fine. Just seems strange to me...It also seems strange that his is happenning in different parts of the country. As I read back on the all posts, the blame seems to be on us, our techniques or our equiptment....but definitely not the product????!!!!!

Don't be shy now as I know how many I have heard of so far. I really hope that the experience with Calhoun's does not cause other "supply" issues with Del-mart.

My laptop at work has the # to Calhoun's Plastics on it. Also, the 5 gallon buckets have the number on it as well. I will follow this post up in the am with the correct contact info. I think that if more individuals come forward (even if you are satisfied now) it will help resolve this issue for others in the future!!!

Maybe a mass shipment of inferior product back to the company with a nice note would be appropriate....Or maybe all the scrappings from the top of your cooked plastic would be nice....

Jim

PS Using McDonalds as a comparison is way off base!!! I am a share holder and frequent Mcd's. If I had an issue with any of their products I would not ahve to call and complain to anybody else but the person right in front of me!!! Rest assured, they would resolve it immediately with full replacement of the product...no discussions AT ALL!!!!!