Forming an association

[Skully]

I understand your point Skully. But what about those that buy off of the web or through catalogs? Those folks do not have the opportunity to see a persons product before they purchase it.

Skeeter

Hmm... I completely see where you are coming from in that sense. I have seen hand crafted lures weather they be plugs or hand pours that I personally would be embarrassed to say I made, but another guy could think: "This is the best ever." In my opinion (which is worth about $.02 on a good day), quality would be in the eye of the consumer. It would seem a buyer protection or buyer satisfaction policy would be more relevant than a judging of quality type system.

[basstech]

Thanks for the clarification Nathan, and the added points Skeeter. I didn't mean to come off as a nay-sayer, I guess I've seen too many times where a good Idea gets turned around into something exclusive for just a group of people kind of like a "good-ol-boys club". I definitely see a lot more positive in this than negative. I think that it being about upholding and certifying a particular standard of quality of workman ship and craftsmanship would be great, the difficulty will be in regulating it. I been fishing over 30 yrs. now and had know Idea there were so many custom manufacturers readily available to the public. I have read about some pro in some magazine knowing "a guy" who makes some of his(being the pro) cranks for him. But it seemed like a journey to Xanadu and back to find a true high quality custom made crank. Apparently there is a need to get some of these manufacturers exposed so anglers know how readily available they are to purchase custom baits from. Thus, it will serve not only the individual lure makers but the overall fishing community. Maybe it can as far as protecting the individual makers by offering a way to copy right or patent designs and schemes so the Pradco people don't screw them over by coming out with something that looks the same but isn't near the quality. Even worse yet...stealing someones pattern/creation and copyrighting it them selves and then suing the individual for making and selling his own creation. Anyway...it really is a great idea....good luck with it all. I do hope it works. Thanks again for explaining it to me. Basstech.

[LaPala]

I've read thru this thread a few more times and I can see some issues are "clouded".

Here's the fact I gathered so far:

the Association is completely seperate from TU. Red is gratious enough to offer bandwidth & space for ideas & issues to be discussed & worked out in TU. PERIOD

Regarding those new in TU and has concerns the Association ratings & stuff would dilute TU's effectiveness of its community of like minded to share info is unfounded. Perhaps why there are questions left unanswered or being redirected to older post is too obvious to be seen. The TUSearch function!!! There's just a limit an older member would have the time/inclination to type out a detail answer which the answer already exist in the forum. TU to date has been around for a while and the wealth of info accumilated is simply immense. When I joined it took me a month just to browse thru the info that's here (maybe it'd take longer now ) Take the time to search & U'll find ur answers most time. Perhaps one day someone would find the time to create a FAQ list from the old post (Sry I digressed for so long :oops: )

Regarding this Association thing, I'm all for it.

I belong to several Associations, one of it is NAUI, the Scuba stuff.

The benifits of having an Association is immense. Besides setting minimal standards and quality assurance; the Association can be a collective voice to champion for benefits of it's members. YES, I agree there will be ppl who do not agree to an Associations rule & regulation but it is to be expected of any standards body. If everyone can agree to one rule then we won't have wars and political parties don't have a place to exist . So go for it Nathan, it'll be an uphill task to get the ball rolling but someone has to give it a shove first. Let me know if any assistant I can provide.

[Skeeter]

OK, now let?s take a look at it from another perspective. I am sure that all of us at one time or another has bought something and gotten ripped off. I know that I have. I felt like an idiot. So the next time I went to buy that item again I started asking questions to my friends to see what they have done. I want to be able to make an informed decision. Like the point that I posed to Skully. How can someone that does not get a chance to see what you make know that it is any good? How does a fisherman trying to make a decision know that the lip in a crankbait won?t pull out, or that the blades on the spinnerbaits that he wants to buy won?t rust after a week, or that the plastics that he just bought won?t color bleed all over everything else in his box?

The Association could be a place where someone could find a skilled craftsman to either make the bait that he needs or do work on something that needs to be repaired. If you have an old crankbait that has a broken lip, a faded paint job or a spinnerbait or jig skirt color that you want reproduced, how do you know who to pick to do the work? The Association can help folks make informed decisions.

This could help all that are bait makers, from semi skilled to master craftsmen. Not all tasks need to be done by master craftsmen. There are plenty of journeymen that could do much of the work that needs to be done for others. The Association could recommend someone to a fisherman. Not everyone wants to pay top dollar to have something done.

Oh yeah, one other thing. I am just a bait maker like the majority of you. I do not do this for a living either. I do not have a big shop with a lot of tools and power equipment. I do my painting over a cardboard box in a leaky and hot garage. I developed my skills through hard work. I have had my successes and failures just like the rest of you. I am nothing special. I am just a crankbait maker?? and that is all.

Skeeter

[MaddoxBay]

I am all in?

I think if it is done right it will help the small lure maker out. I don?t mine constructive criticism. I consider myself a beginner who has had some great teachers here at TU. I take my tackle making serious but I still have a lot to learn.

With an association and its standards set I will know how I would rank against the experts in making baits and painting. I can use the association as a tool to help improve my baits. Maybe one day I could be in the higher ranks as a luremaker and painter.

[Nathan]

Here are a few other topics we need to give some thought too....

1. A Name..What about U.L.C.A. (United Lure Crafters Assoc.)

2.We need to prepare a mission statement...If anyone has one from other organizations they belong too,I'd like too read them.

3.Dues...how much should yearly dues be

4.Not for profit filing..does anybody have any experience with that?

5.Classifications..Crankbaits,soft plastics,lead baits,painters?

6.Logo design...I know we have alot of talent out there for that...

I really don't see this taking off for a year..but WE have alot of work to do in that years time....

What else guys?..Nathan

[GB GONE]

Also remember this....

An association is a VOLUNTARY thing...If you don't think it is a good idea or have a gripe with what it stands for....don't join !!!

Just like any other organization that is out there, some will believe in it, some won't!!! I can only see this discussion as a good thing even if an association does not go forward as there have already been some very solid points made..

Jim

[millsryno]

Hi guys,

I wanted to give my input on this. I have a lot of business experience, outside of soft plastics and after reading all of these posts I think there are some things people are overlooking or missing.

Why form an association? Is it to rank ourselves against our fellow luremakers? Person A is ranked higher than Person B because they have met higher standards or their bait looks better or performs better? You are pitting everybody against each other and this is a MISTAKE. Let's remember that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Person A may produce a slightly nicer bait than Person B, but Person B has the bait delivered in less than a week and Person A is pushing a month or longer and his customers are angry. Does that mean that Person A should be ranked higher? Service counts for something in my book. A true story, I ordered some stuff from a TU member and it is taking longer than 2 months. I would have thought it would take 2 weeks, max. No matter how good the product is, I don't know if I would order again from that person. I think most customers would be mad and this could give lure makers a bad reputation jast as much as poor quality.

I know a lot of guys would like to be known as MASTER in the lure making industry as would I. Would I not make the ranks because I have only been a TU memeber for a short period of time? I have 100% feedback on 3 different eBay accounts. I get many word of mouth customers and regular customers that fish nothing but my baits. I have had people email me from TU asking if my baits are injection molded because of how clean they are (a huge compliment to me!). If I specialize in only one type of bait does that not make me as good as the next guy who does 20 different baits? What if my sticks are better? There are just too many variables.

Don't get me wrong here. I am in favor of an association and would volunteer to help get it going. To pit fellow lure makers against each other is wrong, however. This is where I think we're missing the most important element of this whole thing. People don't join unions at work so they can be pitted up against each other. They join because, together, they can have more of an impact vs. their employer and more of a say in their industry. If we want to form an association or a union, we need to come together. This is the only way we (the little man) have any power vs. companies like Rapala, Gary Yamamoto, Storm, Gamakatsu, etc.

Imagine an association website with links to all the association member's websites. This website could have a ranking system, that our CUSTOMERS rank everybody on, similar to eBay. Imagine a requirement that anybody in the association has the association website address on their packaging or correspondance. Imagine, one day, the association coming together and sponsoring a big name pro. If we come together, we can have just as much impact as the big dogs. It should be set up to get all of us more business (if we are looking for more) and should be set up so that we are all proud to push the association as part of our company.

If we come together, we may be able to negotiate better pricing. If we have 4 suppliers and go to all of them and say, "Our association is looking for one supplier for material X, what is the best price you can give us", we will get better pricing because they will get ALL of our business. As a group, we have much better buying power.

Guys, please don't do this wrong. We need to unite, not pit each other against each other. This should bring us all together and help position ourselves against the big corporations.

Sorry if I make anybody mad with my remarks, but I feel like this is a good idea and want to voice my opinion.

[cranker]

I am afraid that something is going on here that will eventually destroy this wonderful site.Its only been a topic for several days now and already causing alot of animosity between folks.I think I'll just kinda step back and see what happens but you know I think he's rite about this pitting everyone against each other rather than unifying everyone, because once this becomes like a competition whether you realize it now or not but you will have forever changed the site and the comradery that currently exist.Maybe just simply creating something like a formal lure builders union or organization is the answer.Then if someone wants to purchase your lures they will know that it has came from someone who has at least gotten up to date knowledge and you would also still be able to obtain buying power as a organization.I would not hesitate one minute in joining a builders union or organization but not so sure i could be part of something that puts so many fellow builders at a disadvantage that would probably not be overcomable for some.just another opinion but the last comments pretty much hit it on the head.I'm not sure that singleing builders out is the answer and all these different classifications would do just that.Also a little uncomfortable that things have not even came together yet and the fee for membership has already been brought up.Too many times that usually means that a handfull of people get pretty wealthy off of collecting alot of dues from an association that only benefits a very few and everyone else is just along for the ride.anyway,maybe it will all work out to everyones advantage.

[basskat]

Don't worry Cranker, we've had topics that were much more heated than this. I'm glad to see a topic that sparked some interest.

As for the ranking, what's the big deal? If for some reason you were ranked as a beginner that should be even more motivation to improve. There's no Doubt I'd be ranked as a beginner in lots of this I do. It seems as if lots of folks are getting very defensive before anything has even been done.

[redg8r]

A couple things to keep in mind....

If an organization does form, it will have NO bearing on your TU membership. the organisation should be an independent entity.

I like the general idea, sure it needs alot of discussing, but I, myself might wanna join someday & I dont want TU to have any bearing on my acceptance or denial by being affiliated with it.

Nathan mentioned that I offered forum space for the organization, but I would be just as happy to help find webspace for a separate forum/site. just to ensure that theres no confusion. My opinion is that any initial board members should be voted in by the public, based on what the person/s running intend to offer the organisation.

Another term thats getting thrown around is "ranking" Nathan is just throwing out ideas, & ranking was one of em. Most associations or organisations wont do this, like what was previously said, if ranking is necessary, it should be done by the clientale, not the organisation. A board of members should simply approve or deny an applicant on a variety of criteria, what the criteria is, or should be, is what needs to be agreed on.

I'm not trying to hush anyone whos upset by the idea, Im sure Nathan wants ALL feedback, good or bad.

just my thoughts,

[onlybass]

Millsryno has better said what I was thinking and what I poorly conveyed.Nathan,I intended you as whoever was reading post.I was not trying to yank your crank.It is a hairy rat looking thing and looks as if it would yank back-scares me!LOL -if you don't get it, see his site.If one wants an association to achieve a status than that is simply for an ego stroke.If it is to protect one from competition(are you/anybody really afraid of poor competition) then it is protectionistic.These things can be interpreted from some posts.Maybe incorrectly?I am not berating anyone who has either motivation-just call it what it is and state one's intent.My opinion is that consumer protection is a worthy idea and may agree with the notion of gaining industry power.I do not know if membership numbers/dollar amounts can even begin to compete with the big dogs.I strongly disagree that "time" has any bearing on skill.I strongly disagree that numbers of lures produced has any bearing on the quality of ones product.I strongly disagree that the quality components used has no bearing on what is "approved".I can provide examples but I believe we have all seen our own examples in our careers or lives.The standards must be clear and detailed or I fear everyone will be wasting valuable lure building and fishing time, as the association will garner no respect,wither and die be for producing any fruit.There should be a list of approved and tested components.The testing methods should be published.About the bubbled lures: I will not say whose work it was that I paid for,I am not displeased,the lures are functional and preform.It simply made me think "I can do that!"I brought this up to show what can happen to quality when employees are used.How will these things be handled will have to be considered.I believe an association based on standards must have clearly defined, non-judgemental, cut and dried standards.These standards must always be refined and added to, to incorporate new technology,methods and components.I would suggest that "topics" be concentrated on one at a time and utilize reverse planning method.Mission statement would be a good start of the reverse planning method.For the purpose of consumer protection a simple "seal of approval" would suffice.I was not putting anyone in a group with our favorite (purely sarcastic) lurecrafter.I referrred to him trying to warn the association of becomming exclusive to the point of overbearing.As has been said before,these computers convey intent and emotion poorly.I strongly believe that this idea of an association and or rating system is a can of worms.It can catch fish or stink.

[KcDano]

The concerns many have expressed are at this point, only discourse. Being this "association" is in it's infancy many other factors take precedence.

In my opinion, the major concern at this point should be securing enough members to provide a pool of dedicated people who are interested in engineering a succesful association. Perhaps a simple sign-up thread for those who choose to participate. Once a certain level of membership is achieved the aforementioned issues can then be brought forth and voted on.

[earthworm77]

Nathan, I can see the benefits of this in the long run by unifying a group to give tackle builders or in my case hand pourers a voice. However, I just think that problems will arise down the road upon guys being judged in their work. You know that a guy who is rated lower than others will take it personally and accuse everyone of alienating him, not allowing him into the "in" group etc. Perhaps ratings are not the way to go. Experience and the amount of years in business should count for something but why not let that information speak for itself rather than put a number value on it? I'm interested in helping out with this. Let me know if there is anything I can do. I'd also like to hear more nuts and bolts about it.

[earthworm77]

Just thinking about this more, is there a fair way to judge guys level of experience and uality of craftsmanship? I agree with Mills 100%, you will likely pit guys against each other and that will degrade from the purpose. I'm also not sure there is a fair clearcut way to judge guys. Each person will submit polished work but there is no way to judge consistency on a long term basis. Do you go to ebay and check feedback then? I like the premise of the Association but it should not mean that everyone rachets up the competitive level around here. Then you will cut off the information flow as guys are constantly looking over their shoulders. This will in turn alienate newer guys to the site and the "in" guys will be seen as elitist. What credibility can a site have if say I am the judge of craftsmanship? Who the hell am I or ultimately the person who judges this craftsmanship? What if I, the ratee, don't believe that the judge is qualified to rate? There's got to be a way to accomplish the goal of becoming an organization without causing a major rift between builders, craftsmen and tackle makers. My only concern about this is a rating issue. I'm confident about my own work but it WILL cause alot of problems.

[woodsac]

Well it seems to me, that the people who are most concerned with the ratings system are concerned for themselves. Because they are afraid that they will be rated as other than expert.

So let's forget all the *ratings* talk!!!! It was just a suggestion.

Let's discuss the other benefits. Let's assume that there will be no ratings system!! Does that change the minds of anyone that was sceptical? Global discounts on manufacturing material, member discounts to certain angling related events, your anem/website listed as being a knowledgeable and dedicated tackle making enthusiast. Those are great benefits to anyone in this game!

Again, forget about the rating issue and try and focus on some things that could benefit a HUGE group of tackle makers. Think about places like AAA, Sams Club, Costco, NRA. None of these organizations are any different. They all specialize in a field that appeals to the general public. As paying members, they are entitles to certain benefits and luxuries. And we, the general public, turn to these organizations when we are looking for information that relates to their specialty. Someone jumps on line and looks up "tackle". The 1st return from every engine is NTMA (National Tackle Makers Association) or something along those lines And once they visit that site, they then have the option of being directed to your services! Now that's smart business.

[Nathan]

Thanks Jake and Jerry,

It seems the only thing most have taken from my original post was a "Rating" system....I've pointed out on that and several posts since that was only a suggestion to get the brain storming rolling..

I wish I had nuts and bolts too give you guys on the Association,but that was my purpose for posting..too GET nuts and bolts from everyone so we could build this together.I could have chose to do this "behind closed doors" with a few guys from here,but I don't see that as the right thing to do.20 years from now,and the Association is still going strong,I can say "I helped form that"I thought others here would like to be able to say the same.It should be a Association "of the people by the people and for the people"..(I think I read that somewhere before..LOL)

Those of you who have emailed, PM'd or want too help..lets do it...Start posting some nuts and bolts and Ideas now..Nathan

[Dave V]

I'm real new to this board but I don't plan on leaving any time soon.

I am fascinated by the art form of making soft plastics. I am learning so much from these posts. This place is a goldmine of information. Thank you for providing such a place where beginner to expert can share opinions and techniques.

I think that it is a great idea to form a structured system. It won't inhibit creativity at all, and isn't that the main goal?

By having a rating system, it will prevent any ol' hack (like myself) from pushing low quality baits and turning potential customers/dealers away from custom baits.

It would also give the more experienced some recognition that they deserve, especially those who fly under the radar, and potentially open doors for them to distribute/manufacture thee creations on a larger scale on their own terms.

I just don't see it effecting my hobby an any way and in the future when I put out a bait I can be proud of, I would like to see it judged by my peers.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Thanks,

Dave V

[Coley]

Ok guys, listen up. I really don't see what all the fuss

is about.

First of all, it has NOTHING to do with your TU membership.

And as far as a meeting place, look at it like this.

How many of you are members of a bass club,

that meets in the meeting room of your local gas

company or your bank. They have nothing to do

with your club, just allowing you a place to meet.

This is exactly what Jerry is doing, allowing the association

to use his website as a meeting room.

Secondly, no one is going to twist your arm to make

you join. And if you are going to sell your baits, it has

mega benefits down the road. And if your not, it still

has benefits.

Look at the NRA, how many of their members make

or sell guns? I would guess very, very few. But, look

at the power they have in numbers that own guns.

And some that don't.

Let me assure you, there are lure makers out there

that have never heard of TU and these guys will show

up when and if an association is formed.

Lets go ahead and try to get it off the ground in a positive

manner and if you find out, its not for you, you can leave

anytime you like, but, please don't oppose something that

others want to do if it has no effect on you. Dig in, offer

the experience you have to make it what you want it to be.

Ask all the questions you want, but rest assured, very few of the

answers are there yet.

Coley

[KcDano]

Compile a list of who's in, then start delegating tasks. This club should have a newsletter; feature articles and general news pertaining to lure building...etc The newsletter can be sent via email. Select a commitee to begin drafting the Mission Statement and bylaws/constitution for the club. Someone will have to oversee the finacial aspect. So too for membership/activities/fundraising. However, the last two at this point are not critical, in my opinion. I am with Coley. Try it you might like it!

[onlybass]

The first post had two numbered points : 1-classification 2-ratings.That is what is there.Perhaps the "seal of approval" idea can satisfy the ratings issue-dislike/like.Buying power and unified voice did not come up until later in the thread by individuals offering their opinions.I and many others I am sure,are not afraid of having work rated.That is a cop out accusation/an easy way to dismiss what one may see as a differing opinion.One would want it based upon results/end product,not years in the shop.The end users(fisherman) are the true rating.Do they come back and buy more?Read Red's post.This idea of an association is not a bad idea.What the association becomes is what matters.Step back and look at this idea and posts with a pessimistic eye.Can you see some potential pitfalls that would relegate the association to obscurity?There was a great suggestion made of having a contest via the association.Such a thing could provide the "accolades" or peer recognition desired by some members.Is it wrong to ask for detailed criteria to be developed so that one knows before the first first sawdust flies what will have to be accomplished to achieve acceptance?And maybe I want those criteria developed so that I know I will not be put in the same bed with a hack.Just something to think about on the "roofer" analogy.What about the roofer who just went out on his own,has been trained by a reputable firm since he was 16,was a foreman, and is offering a highly competitive price just to launch his business?An association is simply about self interest.That is not bad or good,it just is.How many of us want to join the Rose Growers Guild?Why not?AAA is a travel agency,your dues are basically "insurance"-they've predicted out how many tows they will have to pay for.Businesses sign up with them, and pay them because AAA brings them numerous customers.What will be the associations policy towards copied baits?I am not opposed to the idea of an association.People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals sounds good and look what is about.No one has come out and said they oppose the association,they have asked questions,addressed concerns.It appears to me that most of the questions and concerns are being tagged as negative and the individuals as dissenters/opposition.I personally have not intended that and am not reading that from others.Yet some posts seem quite defensive in reply to questions and concerns.BASS has approximately 50,000 Federation members and enrollment is stagnant.The Federation likes to describe it's clout,yet ESPN/BASS sells 1,000,000 memberships a year and increases.The Federation is only 5% of the total membership.And the Federation wonders why BASS does not cave to every demand.I bring this up because the attitude "join or not",at this formative stage, without an attempt to find more common ground to build the foundation,to the best extent reasonably possible, will surely doom this endeavor and make the next attempt that much harder.

[Nathan]

Onlybass...What is it you want from me???..I can't figure it out through your posts...I'm here inviting input from EVERYBODY to get this off the ground.If you read my last post,I could have gone about this a different way.If you don't want too be part of this,that is fine.If you do,give me something too work with here.

Kcdano,you have some good ideas,I'll pull something together..Nathan

[Bass1cpr]

The Idea of an association is a good one. The ratings idea of having a panel rate them I feel is not. A feed back rating like E-bay has, I think would be better. Let the buyers tell it like they see it. I've seen some fabulious work by many of the members of Tackle Underground. We all have pride in what we do and strive to acheive. I try and acheive craftsmen like quality in what I do. I'm not an expert on every aspect of lure crafting but I have some Ideas of what I expect as does everyone. Some people have a knack for things some don't.

A governing body to keep the association legit is needed. The mission should be to help all lure crafters, not judge them. Those who produce baits for sale will receive the ratings they deserve from the buying public that should be who judges. The NRA does not judge their members, they help protect their wrights and keep an eye on what and who is trying to take them away.

An association should help promote and organize all those involved, no matter your level of skill. A true expert or skilled craftsmen will be recognized as will a hack. JMHO.

[MaddoxBay]

Ok, let?s throw out the thought of ratings right now? it was just a suggestion that?s all.

I still see benefits from this if nothing more than a ?LOUDER VOICE? for the custom lure maker.

This could help a lot of people get their foot in the door for bigger things if they so desire. Not everyone possibly knows the steps to make it to the next level. The association could possibly help in this endeavor and provide an open door that might not exist otherwise. If done properly this could be a great endeavor. I believe the thinking process is well on its way and it won?t be something that forms overnight but instead something that will progress as time goes and we can grow with it.

[GB GONE]

WOW ......What if the posts from now on just included positive, constructive ideas to help push this forward...Is that to much to ask for???

Not that dissenting voices should be squashed but through positive energy much negative can be overcome...

Maybe we should all think about this from a business aspect and forget all else for a minute...As was stated earlier, imagine the purchasing power that all would benefit from. I bet you would get those with dissenting voices on board if you could cut their costs by 20%....

Think about the advertising power a group like this could have as well. Many would be falling over each other for a banner or ad space on a website..

There is much to discuss and just as many negatives as positives may come out, that is what a discussion is for!!! But to belabor all the negatives and not give an idea a chance only dooms the individual not the whole group...

Jim