Forming an association

[Nathan]

This topic has been touched on before,and I think it's time to start moving forward with the process.

You guys coming too Missouri in April,I intend on us spending some time on this topic.I can get some ground work done before then.

I would like too hear some input from everyone on this topic..either here,PM or email.

Some thoughts I've had..again these are just thoughts...

1. Seperate classifications for guys who build wooden lures,soft plastics and wire baits/jigs.

2. Ratings by years experiance,quality of work...beginner,journeyman,expert...etc.

This is going to be a BIG undertaking too get this off the ground,but I think it is a important step for us dedicated too this great craft.

Jerry has offered a spot here on the forum for us to get together and run the association after it is formed.

Lets get some discussion started here..Nathan

[Tally]

Hi Nathan,

could you explain a bit by what the association would be for and what it would do? sorry for being dumb on this but I guess that is what I am.

Tally

[woodsac]

2. Ratings by years experiance,quality of work...beginner,journeyman,expert...etc.

Who sets the ratings? I have seen lots of work that I consider sub-par, but the designer might consider himself an *expert*. And in areas with little or no competition, he might be an expert

[Husky]

"I could never join a group who would have me as a member!"

Groucho Marx

[D.J.]

What would the ratings be for? It is an interesting concept. Who would determine if someone is a "journeyman" or an "apprentice"

[cranker]

I probably havent been a member here long enough to have any opinion to give on this topic, but thought i may as well give mine anyway..I think that putting people in skill classifications does nothing but alienate the people like myself who have just started in this wonderful hobby and need plenty of advice from the veterans.At some point in time everyone here was a newby and didnt know how to do as much as some of the others but some where along the way got some good advice from time to time and raised their skill levels to where they are now.Now you might say,this dont mean alienating anyone from anything but in reality once you start dividing folks up by skill levels based on the opinion of different people who sometimes dont know the guy they are judging or his situation such as disabilitys or other skill altering problems,.all you are doing is making that person feel like they are tackling something where they may never truly be a ""part of the team"".Now this is just an opinion and it may very well be that this association is a great idea,but please be careful about how people are divided and rated and keep this the great site that it is with so many good folks who are willing to help a total stranger do something that we all mutually enjoy doing.

[Nathan]

Talley,in the beginning the association may not mean much...but down the road it will swing some weight.I kind of look at it this way...If I want a roof put on my house,I'm going too hire someone who knows what he is doing,not someone who saw a house roofed once....The Association will provide STANDARDS that have too be met...What are those standards...I'm not sure yet...thats what the discussion is for.

Those standards will need too be set with in each catagorie..(woodbaits,soft plastics,spinnerbaits..etc.)

Woodsac,and DJ...Again,a board would need to be formed and ground rules layed out for judging and criteria...

The Association is in a emproy form right now..literally everthing needs too be put together....Look at the association as the "Good House Keeping Seal of Approval"..Nathan

[GB GONE]

I think Nathan is going down the right path....I have long thought about spearheading an association for hand pourers. If we don't do it, somebody will and I would rather have a say in my "hobbie's" destination than leaving it to another group.

Ratings may alienate some but are just an arbitrary thing anyway...Most who are honest about their "hobby" and skills could be easily judged by their peers and put into categories. My father was a journeyman electrician and was proud to help the apprentices out!!! This didn't make him better than them just more experienced.

I for one would be very interested and would devote some time as a volunteer to get things going from the soft plastics side...

Jim

[texasbass1]

Nathan,

I would be interested in this both with soft plastic and spinnerbaits.

[chirmy]

Can we move this to the DOCKS? maybe more can read and reply.

Perhaps leave it voluntary in the beginning and let those see how the "panel" will handle those who volunteer everyone.

I would not take offense to anyone ever judging me ( I usually deserve what I get) but like posting on the web, there is no "emotion" when one types and there will be none when one is giving a rating and things can easily be taken out of context.

So by joining TU would you be given a beginner status?

Above Cranker wrote :

[i think that putting people in skill classifications does nothing but alienate the people like myself who have just started in this wonderful hobby and need plenty of advice from the veterans]

The rating system would ensure you that you were getting advice from someone who has been approved as an expert by this site.

This site has always been a free for all when it comes to information. I would hate to see anything take that away. However, If you do make it an association, wouldnt you have to start charging dues?

Last, I nominate Woodsac to the Association Board.

[nova]

I don't know Nathan. In theory and on paper it may sound good but when you throw real live people in the mix things can go 7 ways from sunday real quick.

My first mental image is a college setting with the dorms vs the sororities.

I think that this may be a can of worms, that once opened, may not be too good for TU.

[Mr B]

I think Nova summed up my feelings in his post best. I think the sharing here is done well. I dont think anyone here is intentionally steering someone the wrong way. Its nice to see 6 or 7 different ways to help with someones question instead of the 1 answer from the only "Expert" who might be lurking at that time. Take someones answer with a grain of salt and decide weather its the answer you were looking for.

Nathan, I can totally see where you are going with this. Especially with your "Contractor" example however I think people (not myself) will feel left out or sub-par.

If someone is worried about making a purchase or trade, Im sure most guys here would have no problem emailing a pic of their product to the buyer.

I dont see creating these catagories being a good thing for TU either.

Sincerely

Mr B

Brent

[Nathan]

There has been confusion on the issue....The only part TU will play in this is giving us a spot on the forum too meet,and I would assume a large part of the membership would come from TU Members...IN NO WAY is TU affiliated in any other way.....the site here,and info contained here would not change.

Cranker,the time you've been affiliated here makes no difference...I'm looking for input from everyone!!.In no way are Ideas presented here set in stone...they are ony that,ideas.Without brain storming nothing will come of it.

The idea of classifications on skill level,and time building lures is just a thought...It is not meant too divide anyone.Like someone said,we all were newbies at one time.I would think starting out as a novice,and working your way through the ranks would be appealling.I look at it this way...I can build a lure,and show it too my wife.."thats nice dear"..now if I took that same lure,and have a group of guys with some experience look at it,and give it the thumbs up..that means a little more.Do I need this from my peers...NO,but there isn't anyone reading this who doesn't appreciate a pat on the back from someone who knows what they are talking about ...

I know I maybe opening a can of worms here,...and there is alot of work ahead too make this work...but as a crankbait builder,it jacks my jaw when someone buys some finished bodies from Janns and hangs hooks on it then calls himself a custom lure builder....I just think it's time for some ground rules..Nathan

[wsswesty]

I would be very interested in joining some type of organization dedicated to lure making. There are many good points about the classifications (pro's and con's). If the association would happen to have lure competitions in the future (similar to fish carving and decoy carving competitions) then classifications would probably be needed. Even then, they usually have classifications called "Open" divisions where anyone (beginner to master) can enter their carvings.

I think the idea is great and applaud you for your efforts. Every organization goes through the same issues....it's just part of the evolutionary process. Hammering out issues is what makes the organization strong and viable. If you need volunteer help...let me know.

[Nathan]

Westy,

Thanks for the offer..at this point ,we are at the brain storming stage.If you have any specific (or general) thoughts..lets hear them..Nathan

[basskat]

If an organization was formed, could we not negotiate special buys for members? If it's large enough manufactures will pay attention to our concerns and purchase power. I think it could be a good thing.

I've been in the lure making business for nearly 15 years. I dabble in all of it, plastics, wire baits, and painting my own cranks. Does this make me an expert? No way. I'm much better with the plastics than the cranks! If someone new or old for that matter shows up with a new idea, I give it a try. Sometimes thinking outside the box solves a problem that some of us old members have been struggling with for years. In no way would an

organization stop me from taking advice from anyone or giving advice.

I think it could turn into a very positive thing for ALL lure makers.

[Lure--Prof]

Nathan,

I'm behind you on this for sure. We who are selling lures need an association. What was once a quaint hobby for a few people here and there, has blossomed into a major cottage industry. Those of us who depend on custom luremaking for some amount of income, would, for the most part, welcome some standards. I think it could only shine a light on the quality of the products we make. No way will it disrupt any of the typical open communication on this site; on the contrary it will no doubt help us all be better lure craftsmen by opening even more avenues of dialogue. Uh, just my opinion. :grin:

Dean

[cranker]

o.k. Nathan, After reading more of what folks had to say on this issue,I may have mis-understood what you were trying to do.I thought the association was for the purpose of cutting us newbys out of the information loop.I do understand that people who build baits for income do need to have some type of skill standards to showcase.Sorry if i came across as a jack-ass on the issue earlier, because now i think i understand what you are trying to accomplish.I only paint and build baits for personnal use and i also do some custom work for my fellow bass club members and of course my tournament partner.I would never have the time to do this as a profession with most of my time being used to raise my young boys, but I would like to know that with whatever happens TU stays the same so that future builders such as my boys and many others who will one day take an interest in this great sport and hobby can get the same help and advice that myself and many others have gotten here.If i were depending on my baits as part of my income i think i would feel the same way as some of you do on the skills issues.I once worked in sales for the manufacturing company that i now manage and i know first hand that sometimes the hardest thing in the world to compete against is someone who sells a product that is not built on the same quality level as what you have to offer.Anyone can build and paint a lure but not just anyone can build and paint one that is done in a professional manner and built to perform in the water and not to just be pretty tackle box decorations.

[onlybass]

This is a can of worms.What is your motivation for a ratings system?In some cases it appears to be protectionist or ego.The apprentice and journeyman system in machining is nearly extinct because the "standards" varied from "grader" to "grader".Too many journeymen were jokeymen.Too many employers got burnt on an overpriced hack.If I made a bait with e-tex as a coating could Skeeter rate my work as excellent?I don't think so or he could not be true to his beliefs.There are too many variables in lure making,lures for a specific situation,structure,season and locale.Materials vary.Components vary.Does the bait have to be painted "pretty"? What happens when a lure maker hires help?I have several lures from a highly respected individual that I am quite sure would be considered by all here as The Journeyman and undoubtedly be a top candidate for a "judge".Yet two of the lures have large bubbles in the clearcoat.I know this work was not done by him, but his hired help.And that fueled me to do my own lures.A good (poor) example is ISO 9000.This was nothing more than artificial trade barriers desinged to protect European labor.They chose the most stringent standard of those submitted by participants.Not the most logical/funtional.The big three automakers saw this for what it was and made the QS system.There are three ways to get ISO certification.Spend many thousands to document/comply and many thousands to maintain certification through a reputable ISO "grader".Or you can spend a little less,do a little less for a less than grader.The third way is to not and just say you are.Same for many U.S."rating entities" in many markets.There are only three legitimate ways for rating lures-fish,fishermen and yourself.Again most of the reasons submitted so far seem to have an underlying intent of protectionism and ego strokes.There was a guy around here awhile ago that got a bit highminded and I would suggest him as your first member.But then you would be out,because he wouldn't let you in.

[basstech]

Well I'm brand new here and have more of a concern than a question. I've been an avid angler for over 30 yrs. now but as far as this ranking thing go's I know my ranking would be(and I didn't see this one mentioned), Unskilled, Untalented, RANK beginner!

Here is my point though, I know I want to learn and work at becoming a good airbrush-er...maybe even close to the artist level, but I'm not so sure I inherently have what it takes, I guess I actually have a fear of being discriminated against because I may never be able to do the caliber of work of someone like skeeter, Hughesy, Robzilla, Lapala, Coley, and many others whose work I've looked at carefully and admire. My primary motivation for learning how to airbrush crank baits is to catch more, bigger, and more bigger bass. To be able to have something different that fish aren't conditioned to, and save money by being able to fix up my cranks, especially the ones that catch fish...but am getting the idea maybe I don't belong here and shouldn't be asking questions about how to do something that I haven't found posted yet. Quality in the visual arts has always alluded me, I can't even draw a straight line. I was thinking I was just an average guy with my motivation...so with rankings are people going to even be willing to answer questions, talk to or associate with an unskilled,untalented, RANK beginner like myself?

[Skeeter]

I think that the Association could be a good thing. Here is my reason why. I think that there should be some type of rating so that folks that want to buy custom baits will not be getting ripped off. It is too easy for someone to make a crankbait (or any other type of bait?. plastic, wire, etc) and say that they have it right. The customer will buy the bait and think that they have the real deal for catching his fish. Then they take the bait out and it falls apart. At that point the customer will be disillusioned and probably not buy anymore. Long story short?? I went through the process of buying a lot of custom crankbaits. Most of them fell apart or were just slapped together. I caught very few fish on them too. I have paid as high as $25.00 for them and many were from well known crankbait makers. It was my disillusionment with what I had bought that got me making crankbaits. I swore that I would not turn out garbage. It has been 5 yrs. now that I have been making crankbaits. I cannot even begin to account for the tremendous amount of hours that I have devoted to learning, experimenting, failing, and succeeding.

By having the Association that sets standards and a rating system, we as bait makers can protect the reputation of the custom bait making community. I think that we have a duty to protect our craft as well as the people that support us by purchasing our product. I also feel that there needs to be a catagory for painters. This is an art in itself. When I fist joined TU there were about 32 of members. Now there is over 2500 registered users. There are a lot of people learning from our work This is a good thing. It is what TU was created for. I and so many others, have learned from the goodness of skilled craftsmen sharing what they have gained through much hard work. I cannot see where the formation of the Association will stop this from continuing.

As far as those that are not pleased with their rating?? this is that individuals problem. It is not like childs T-ball where everyone gets a trophy. It takes hard work to be good at anything. If someone does not want to do the work then they will never make that high rating. If it is the case that they do not have the talent then again?.. that is their problem. Not everyone does. It is a fact of life. People have a choice of either joining the Association or not. No one is forcing anyone?s hand. My work will be judged by my peers just as anyone else.

I agree that this will not be an easy undertaking. But it needs to start. I applaud Nathan for having the guts and taking on the tremendous task of getting it all started.

Skeeter

[Nathan]

Cranker,

You didn't come off as a jack-ass at all..you had a concern and you voiced it in a non-confritational manner....I think that the Association will benefit everyone involved,just not those who sell baits.In time,it will give us a little muscle to stand up too the Bagleys,Luhr-jensens etc of the world.If you don't think some of there designers don't visit this site,your kidding yourself.

Basstech,

I doubt I'll ever be able too paint aswell as that group you mentioned..but it's something too shoot for!! The association's intent isn't meant too divide us,but to bind us.In order for the Association too prosper its members need too aswell.

Whatever,and however (and if ever) standards are set,it will be US during these early planning stages with feed back from all who will set them.I doubt you'll have too paint aswell as Tim Hughes too succeed...that would mean 90% of the Association couldn't move forward.There should be minimum standards..there is in everything

Onlybass,

I don't recall ever meeting you....So too refer too me as egotistacal is a bold statement,and nothing could be further from the truth.Last April I got a chance too spend a few days with some of the best lure crafter and painters in the country..if not the world..none of them were egotistical either,is a matter of fact just the opposite.They were the most humble helpful men you'd ever want too meet.

As for what top coat you use,I'm sure Skeeter is too busy building cranks to really care wether you use E-tex,Devcon or super glue for a top coat.A panel would look at craftmenship of the bait.Top coat choices would play no part so long as they are applied correctly.

You made two statements which strengthens my arrgument for a association.The first you made referance too purchasing some custom cranks with bubbles in the finish.You said that the builders hired help had probably caused it...again good money paid for poor work...I'm sure the builder didn't know that had taken place...

and finally you were referencing someone who was here for a year,and was suddenly a expert...you have too pracatice this craft for longer than that to be considerd a expert.And again you make a character referance about myself,and that individual being similiar in nature..and again I say that is a bold statement for never meeting me,and couldn't be further from the truth.

[Skully]

I'm not really seeing the point of this. If it is being created for the purpose of being given a seal of approval by "someone" or a board of people to say I make a quality product, no offense, but that sounds ridiculous. If a potential client were to base their decision on my product based on weather or not I was a member of or was approved by an "association" I would honestly laugh at them. I've been in the tackle business since the early 90's. People know quality when they see it. I don't see how having a seal of approval by a group who proclaims they are an authority on quality and craftsmanship judging my product is beneficial other than being able to say: Hey everybody look! I'm a member of a lure association and they think I make good stuff!". Not all, but most of the people that have a hand pour business that visit this site all use the same Bob's and Del-mart production molds, pretty much have the same color selection, use the same sales pitch: "We use state of the art aluminum molds... We have the softest plastic...", ect. The only thing to really judge them on is weather or not their baits have any flashing. And a customer / retailer can easily see things such as that. Again, no offense intended. That's just the way I am seeing it. If I have the wrong picture I apologize.

[Skeeter]

I understand your point Skully. But what about those that buy off of the web or through catalogs? Those folks do not have the opportunity to see a persons product before they purchase it.

Skeeter

[Tally]

Dumb Tally here and after sitting back and letting these posts come in, I am starting to understand just what an association could do. For the guys who are in this as a business or to supplement their income I can see where a rating on their baits would have some meaning when they market their product. For the hobbyist, I think this could give him some sort of idea of where he is as far as the quality of the lure he makes. As long as the ratings are honest and fair I think something like this would be good. There is some really talented people on TU and I value their opinion very much, but if I am producing a junk bait.......I want to know! Telling me how nice my lure is just to make me feel good really is not helping me in the hobby I enjoy. This means that some feelings are going to get hurt and I think that needs to be stated right up front before anyone decides to join the association.

Ratings: I have always considered myself as a newbie, but Artbrush took my newbie status away, so I am now an "almost-newbie" and prefer to stay that way. I build some pretty good baits and they do catch fish, but I am positive there are things on my baits that need improvement and I am constantly trying to improve each time I make a lure. I think if this ever gets off the ground there needs to be a description of what the bait was designed to do and that is how it needs to be rated. I make a crank that has a slow rise and that is how it needs to be rated. If you don't like a slow rising lure then you will not like mine.

performance of the lure; This is not going to an easy task. If you are testing a crank bait and the crank bite isn't their how are you going to rate it. Personally, I have given more baits away than I care to talk about just to get them in the hands of fisherman. I know I have something special going when one of those guys comes back and says he wants to buy more. If I ever get to the point where quantity is more important than quality, I will retire from this hobby.

Tally