mark poulson Posted October 16, 2016 Report Share Posted October 16, 2016 It was not supported by the sport fishing industry.I'm sure the "tree huggers and loon lovers" will try again and fail. Just like "global warming"- it seems groups today have a narrative they are supporting- w/out facts and science. Just look @ the pollution that continues today in our rivers from endocrine disruptors that have effected humans and fish. One is birth control residues that out current water filtration systems cannot remove. I don't hear or see the fanatics yaking about this. I don't think calling people names because they disagree with you does any good. We need a discussion, not a shouting match. People who are worried about our planet's health and future are our allies, even if we don't agree with their distinct point of view. I'd choose them over Big Oil and Big Pharma every time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted October 16, 2016 Report Share Posted October 16, 2016 Mark- you can sugar coat the names/problems today but useless,politically correct rhetoric from the affluent accomplishes "0" and cost more $ in the long run. Facts are difficult for most to understand so we'll ban lead in fishing tackle,, do nothing concerning antiquated sewage treatment facilities,ignore endocrine disruptors and continue flying around the country as those "in the know'' fly around in their private jets,spewing copius amounts of CO2 preaching their support for global warming. https://www.google.com/search?q=endocrine+disruptors+polluting+our+rivers&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=private+jet+pollution+in+the+atmosphere&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/google-flying-high-and-polluting-the-air-with-government-bought-fuel/ http://asafishing.org/advocacy/legislative-action/lead-in-fishing-tackle/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted October 16, 2016 Report Share Posted October 16, 2016 smallmouthaholic, I agree with most of what you say. I just think there are ways to say it that will be better heard. You come off as an angry person, not as someone who is interested it helping to make things better, and I'm sure you don't mean to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 smallmouthaholic, I agree with most of what you say. I just think there are ways to say it that will be better heard. You come off as an angry person, not as someone who is interested it helping to make things better, and I'm sure you don't mean to. Just direct w/o sugar coating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljaw Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 It all comes down to which group pays the most money to the politicians. Big Pharma is the main reason you don't hear anyone crying about endocrine disruptors which are what has caused one of my main fisheries to begin to fail, intersexed fish can't reproduce which is the main cause of poor year classes but nobody worries about that. The reason is the pharmaceutical industry pays a lot of politicians a lot of money to keep it from becoming a problem on paper, I was at a public meeting with the Fish and Boat commission in my state and someone brought up the topic of intersexed fish and it was shot down so fast it was unbelievable, in fact they held small discussions on every other concern except for that one and that is what the power of money can do. I agree with Smallmouthaholic in that environmental groups have been leading the charge in lead bans, but it has nothing to do with water quality, it is about Loons and other birds eating the small lead shot that has be spread not by anglers, but water fowl hunters. The same groups have been trying to get soft plastics banned as well, remember food source lures? They paid a university for a study that said the discarded soft plastics are killing wildlife as well as polluting the water and that just proves that with enough money, you can get a study done that proves cigarette smoke can cure cancer. Follow the money and you'll understand a little more about these groups. Mark, I also know where you are coming from and if these groups were concerned about water quality in addition to protecting the wildlife, well I'd give them a little more credit but most could care less which is why they don't same anything at all about endocrine disruptors which are more harmful than lead by a large margin. I apologize for the rant but this has been my main point since lead bans started getting talked about all the time, it is like banning beer to prevent drunk driving while ignoring whiskey and other hard liquor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfart9999 Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 You can say what you want about the bans not being based on science or supported by fishing industry, true as it is it is also indisputable that these bans are happening and will continue to happen. Rodney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diybassfishing Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 On 9/1/2007 at 1:00 PM, hawnjigs said: Found this doing a Google of tungsten toxicity: "In the USSR since 1950, the toxicological and environmental effects of tungsten were investigated, including tungsten concentrations in natural and contaminated soils and water reservoirs; tungsten uptake by plants; and tungsten toxicity. Environmental regulations of tungsten pollution were then developed based on these studies: tungsten was assigned to the 3rd toxicity group (moderate dangerous chemical compounds) for air in the populated areas and soil, and to the 2nd toxicity group (higher dangerous chemical compounds) for water reservoirs." The dangers of tungsten toxicity is the same as most any kind of heavy metal. I think what they are talking about is manufacturer wasts like, tungsten dust, salts, and cast off, being released into the air and environment causing toxic interactions. All heavy metals including gold and platinum cause heavy metal toxicity, there just not easly absorbed into the body or eco system as lead is. But it is possible and there is some information about metals such as tungsten and platinum thought of as non-toxic causing heavy metal poisoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diybassfishing Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 On 3/5/2007 at 8:55 PM, titowoody said: I have come to love Tungsten for my Texas Rig worm waits. Tungsten is twice the density of steel therefore half the size. A 1/4oz tungsten is the size of 1/8oz lead, this reduction in surface area makes for a quick deep diving weight, great for Drop Shoting. The greater density also creates a distinctive clicking sound when bounced over rocks. I am a firm believer in lateral line detection and lead has a dull thunk compared to what I know refer to as the dinner bell worm weights. Parasite makes a neat product but only small sizes of Tungsten. A lot of Tourny guys would like to see a bigger Tungsten, would be much quicker to punch through the late summer slop. Was a bit shocked to see the melting point of Tungsten @ 3400C. This will require a mini blast furnace setup. Curious to see if any other TU'ers have dabbled into pouring Tungsten. The spot price on Tungsten is also quite high which translates into the much higher cost. In Cananda we might as well start getting ready now for a ban on lead is looming, just like lead shot ban for waterfowl. It is already in effect in all The Federal Parks. Time to look into Ye Olde Blast Furnace. Cheers TW To chime in I have been playing around with a lot of differnt brands of tungsten lately and have come up with a few theories. And one comes from a strike king wight I found that had started to rust slightly, at first I thought it was just from the DS hanger but after I looked at it closer I found it spotting rust. This I'm sure is a clue to the manufacturers proses. I believe they alloy the tungsten or add powdered tungsten to or with Tin this allows them a 100% lead free product wile making the manufacturing proses cheeper so they don't need an expenseive arc forge. And I'm sure different companies use different metals to pair with the tungsten but I think this is a fairly close bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck Posted January 29, 2018 Report Share Posted January 29, 2018 Here in Canada the use of lead weights and jigs are banned from use in national parks and designated wildlife areas. All other water ways subject to provincial guidelines. So far no restrictions for the fishing tackle industry. Bird shot has been lead free for years now. All motivated to protect water foul( ducks geese and loons) from ingesting lead pellets and lost jigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smalljaw Posted January 29, 2018 Report Share Posted January 29, 2018 On 1/25/2018 at 12:00 AM, Diybassfishing said: To chime in I have been playing around with a lot of differnt brands of tungsten lately and have come up with a few theories. And one comes from a strike king wight I found that had started to rust slightly, at first I thought it was just from the DS hanger but after I looked at it closer I found it spotting rust. This I'm sure is a clue to the manufacturers proses. I believe they alloy the tungsten or add powdered tungsten to or with Tin this allows them a 100% lead free product wile making the manufacturing proses cheeper so they don't need an expenseive arc forge. And I'm sure different companies use different metals to pair with the tungsten but I think this is a fairly close bet. Strike King doesn't manufacture their weights, they are most likely made by an overseas manufacturer that produces the same type of product for other companies as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglinarcher Posted January 29, 2018 Report Share Posted January 29, 2018 (edited) On 10/17/2016 at 5:25 AM, smalljaw said: just proves that with enough money, you can get a study done that proves cigarette smoke can cure cancer. This is true. That is why "true" scientist have open discussions, pier review, and repeatable independent testing to confirm results. Do you remember cold fusion? When you get just one study, or studies sponsored by a specific group, question them, question them extensively. On 1/24/2018 at 9:51 PM, Diybassfishing said: Found this doing a Google of tungsten toxicity: Like I said, question extensively. I find that Google is a great source for a lot of information, but it is also severely biased. Many years ago Japan released a statement that said 60% of the open information on the internet is wrong. I hope/suspect that this is not correct, but they made a valid point. The USSR, and a report that we don't even know actually exist, is one that demands "open discussions, pier review, and repeatable independent testing to confirm results". On 1/24/2018 at 9:51 PM, Diybassfishing said: All heavy metals including gold and platinum cause heavy metal toxicity, there just not easly absorbed into the body or eco system as lead is. Partly true. All metals, especially heavy metals, can cause toxicity. Gold, Platinum, and Tungsten, are actually relativity chemically inactive. Silver is worse, but we don't even consider that one. There is an old saying that says too much of even a good thing is bad. After all, too much water will kill you, and if you inhaled pure oxygen for long, you would be as dead as not getting it at all. So Balance, Balance. As for lead, it is a funny thing. In chemistry we do a qualitivity analysis to analyse liquid samples. In High School Chemistry classes they do it as well, and the very first thing they test for is lead, because it precipitates out so fast that if they did not all of the other testing would overshadow it. Lead is only a problem if it is dissolved with an acid, like in stomachs. Did you know that if you live in an older city, like New York, Atlanta, Toronto, San Diego, etc., that you probably have miles of lead water pipes, just like Flint Michigan did? Flint only had a problem because their new water source was acidic. Well, let me take that back, lead poisoning might explain some the behavior in the old big cities. ROFLOL I have had my doubts, as a science based individual, an Engineer and Project Manager for over 25 years, about a lot of the environmental claims made. The environment is a lot cleaner then it was when I was a kid 50+ years ago. I am not saying we cannot do more, because we can and should, but BALANCE, BALANCE. As for banning lead, far more ducks and geese have died from wounds due to poor performing steel shot then have ever died from lead. A strong claim can be made that the ban was a slippery slope to stop hunting, but it took on a life of its own. I wonder how many birds actually eat lead sinkers, and if they eat jigs, I suspect the hooks in the jigs do far more damage. OUCH! We have a lot of very smart, and a lot of very opinionated, people on this site, from all places in the world. Yes, many of them are smart and opinionated. HEHE. What I am concerned about is people getting upset with each other. This is first, and foremost, a lure making forum. Discussing politics, religion, or subjects that seem to take on elements of both (like lead poisoning, global warming, etc.) should probably be avoided. The last thing I want to see is people I consider internet friends, and people I rely on for information and advice, quarreling with each other. Please, let this be the last controversial post. I will take the heat, and you can PM me with all the hate mail you want, but I want my friends to start acting like my friends again. OK? Edited January 29, 2018 by Anglinarcher missed a couple of words Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimpNoodle Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 17 hours ago, Anglinarcher said: As for banning lead, far more ducks and geese have died from wounds due to poor performing steel shot then have ever died from lead. A strong claim can be made that the ban was a slippery slope to stop hunting, but it took on a life of its own. I wonder how many birds actually eat lead sinkers, and if they eat jigs, I suspect the hooks in the jigs do far more damage. OUCH! Truer words have never been said. Back when the law changed I was an avid waterfowl hunter. 4-5 days a week. I hunted on the Columbia River near the confluence with the Snake river. Prior to the law changing I rarely used more than a dozen shells to take a limit of ducks. We had very few wounded birds. I also helped with doing bird counts. Since the river in that area is more than a mile wide there's lots of water to cover. Even scouring the river we found few wounded birds. Then comes the change to steel shot. I shot a case of steel shot before bird season to get used to the difference. We hunted over 10-12 dozen decoys with a kill zone 20-30 yards in front of the blind. Both my hunting partner and I were very good callers. We had been using a handload that used 1 3/8 ounces of hardened #5 shot. We called the load the undertaker. We could take two limits with a box of shells or less. When steel shot was mandated we switched. We were hitting ducks in the kill zone, we could both see and hear the ducks being hit. We were using steel #2 shot. We saw dozens of ducks that were hit, hump up and fly to the middle of the river. 10 days after the season started there were rafts of wounded ducks in the middle of the river that numbered into the hundreds. The other side of the river, where the wind blew the dead ducks, smelled of death so bad you couldn't stand it. In one 100 yard stretch on that side of the river there were over 200 dead and wounded ducks found. My hunting buddy and I quit hunting waterfowl in less than two weeks. We had expended over four cases of shells, the full 20 box cases not these 10 box flats they sell today, and and taken less than 40 ducks. We were sickened by what had happened. Part of the problem was those early steel shot loads. To put it simply they sucked. But the killing power of a steel pellet is much less than a lead pellet of the same size. There's no doubt that the ban was put in place to reduce hunting. After all if you take away hunting you take away the primary reason people own guns, according to a liberal view, and that makes it easier to ban guns. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglinarcher Posted January 30, 2018 Report Share Posted January 30, 2018 Now that you mention it, that is about when I started to stop waterfowl hunting. I tried Bismuth when it came out and it was closer to lead, and my kill rate went back up, wounded ducks back down, but the cost was too much for a recently separated Army Vet to afford. I still have an award winning "Duck Soup" recipe given me by a retired super chief that had the top rated restaurant in in Hong Kong back in the day. It has not been dusted off and used in many years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild bill Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 you could just silver solder a brass eye onto something already made from tungsten, saw teeth, drill bit cutters , router bits, welding rods, shaper cutters. Use a torch and remove them from what they are on. Melt the solder, clean them up, fit the pieces ,solder them in place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglinarcher Posted February 2, 2018 Report Share Posted February 2, 2018 11 hours ago, wild bill said: you could just silver solder a brass eye onto something already made from tungsten, saw teeth, drill bit cutters , router bits, welding rods, shaper cutters. Use a torch and remove them from what they are on. Melt the solder, clean them up, fit the pieces ,solder them in place. Bill, welcome to the forum, I see you are new and we like to see new people. Now, as for your process, the cost of doing that would be off the charts. You can mold with Bismuth and get 95% the weight of lead. It is a little brittle and very expensive, but much less then ........... I think we got derailed on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ez2cDave Posted April 7, 2018 Report Share Posted April 7, 2018 Yes, I know this thread started in 2007 . . . Pardon a "dumb question" . . . Doesn't Tungsten have a Melting Point of about 6,200 degrees Farenheit ? Just saying . . . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGinKSQYJWI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglinarcher Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 Yep. https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=B2XJWr6NG-r-jwTlhafoCA&q=melting+point+of+tungsten&oq=melting+point+of+tun&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l6j0i22i30k1l4.1204.5033.0.8553.21.13.0.7.7.0.179.1460.5j8.13.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.20.1487.0..46j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i46k1.0.9Ka2MpuOxT0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillG-MN Posted May 2, 2018 Report Share Posted May 2, 2018 Newbie here. I ran across this thread while searching for ways to make larger tungsten jigs. I've been making my own ice fishing and crappie sized tungsten jigs for a years. Beads are available from some fly-tying shops or on eBay, which can simply be soldered to a hook using lead-free electronic solder. The 5.5mm size works very well. Tungsten is so nice to use through the ice! But I haven't been able to find larger tungsten shapes for walleye or bass sized jigs. I have been molding those using a bismuth-tin alloy. It is interesting, melting at about 280F. Definitely not a candidate for powder paint, but very easy to do! For me, pitching spinnerbaits on a small river as I drift in a canoe, the weight is more important than how fast it sinks, so it works well for me. The tungsten beads I'm getting are all attracted to a magnet, so I suspect they have a small amount of iron powder mixed in. If anyone knows where to get larger sizes, I'd appreciate hearing about it. For jigging walleyes on the bottom, the extra sink of tungsten would be nice. Regarding the comments about lead toxicity, I can tell you from first hand experience, many times over many years, that it is absolutely real. Going through this effort to make lead-free jigs is worth it, so thanks to all of you doing it. . My experience is mostly with trumpeter swans, which get noticed when they are sick, because they are so large and visible, and still fairly rare. Yes, you can kayak with ski poles over a half an inch of ice to try to catch them to get them to a wildlife rehab, but by the time they are that sick, most don't live. Tests on dead swans here in MN show that lead is what caused the death of about 40% of them. Waterfowl have to have gravel in their gizzards in order to help them crush corn, etc. That is how they find lead, mixed with gravel on the lake bottom, mostly in the form of old lead shot, but some small sinkers and jigs, too. It gets ground up in their gizzard and into their blood. A single #4 is enough to kill a swan pretty quickly, and it is an ugly death. It is a neurotoxin, so it damages their brain. Loons and eagles get lead from lost jigs, maybe from a fish that broke or cut off a line, and later dies from being gut hooked. Bullet fragments in gut piles after the deer season also kill a lot of eagles. The lead dissolves in their stomach acid. All it takes is a small sliver. Luckily, with hunting and fishing, we can make better choices, and the new choices often work better. Tight lines, guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly1960 Posted April 2, 2020 Report Share Posted April 2, 2020 You are all worried about to much. If you are worried about a lead ban in the fishing industry you need to go look at the new outdoor bill the government just passed and Pres. Trump signed into law. It protects the fishing industry from lead bans because of the hard ship it would put on companies that make fishing tackle. I can't remember the name of the bill but it was passed to protect the fishing industry and the small tackle companies. A ban on lead in the fishing industry would put most tackle manufactures out of business. Like I said, don't take my word for it go look up the outdoor bill just passed. Sometimes to really understand what is happening out there you need to get involved with your government reps. Thank you for your time and consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiderunner Posted April 3, 2020 Report Share Posted April 3, 2020 On 3/7/2007 at 4:06 PM, ominousone said: bismouth, has anyone tried that yet? or maybe tin? Ive been pouring jigs and weights in a bismuth alloy for about 2 years now. Certainly more costly then lead but a whole lot less costly than tungsten. I'm melting and pouring at about *500. You won't be twisting sprues off these items. You'll need gate shears to trim, and sandpaper or file to clean where you cut the sprue off. As far as powder coating, I'll powdercoat the next day or even longer after I pour to allow the items to cool completely. The I heat them gently over an alcohol lamp and dip them. Plan on ruining a bunch due to heating to a too high temp. I hang them once again to cool. And then finally heat them in an oven set at 275 for smaller stuff, and 290 for the bigger stuff. Jigs weights or whatever are hung in oven as it heats to temp, and once the set temp is reached I shut the oven off. Not as perfect a finish as a lead jig, but not too bad. Instead of powder coating you can also spray paint them. If I spray them, I but a finish coat of clear. Alloy I use is around $15 a pound. There is a learning curve to pouring the alloy as it behaves differently than lead. It expands as it cools, so at times it can be a botch to remove from the mold. No actually their always that way. Especially when pouring bullet type worm weights. For jigs I graphite coat the mold, and after pouring I give the mold a whack with a small hammer. Bullet weights are the worst! The pull pins are a royal pain to remove. I've tried using WD 40, Pam, and I'll be pouring this weekend, and I'm going to experimant with Never Seize. The items aren't as fragile as you might be led to believe. But are more fragile than lead. The way I test for lead vs alloy when I get sloppy on the work bench, I whack'em with a hammer. If it shatters- alloy. If it flattens- lead. As far as weight. Iypically pour 1/4, 5/16, 3/8, and 1/2oz items. Using the same molds as one would use for lead. Weight difference is negligible. Example... a 3/8oz jig should weigh .375 oz, where as an alloy jig will go roughly .355 to as close to.370oz. Density of course is different, so if you want a faster fall, just move up to the next 1/16 or 1/8 oz. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiderunner Posted April 3, 2020 Report Share Posted April 3, 2020 It is interesting, melting at about 280F. Definitely not a candidate for powder paint, This is the alloy I've been using. The antimony makes the product much harder. It would have to be to take the ignition of a bullet. Also a bullet would require an alloy capable of high temps. Lead Free Bullet Casting Alloy Bismuth based 87.25% Bismuth, 0.75% Antimony and 12% Tin This alloy melts at about 395 F and is best cast or poured at about 500F Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiderunner Posted April 3, 2020 Report Share Posted April 3, 2020 20 hours ago, Kelly1960 said: You are all worried about to much. If you are worried about a lead ban in the fishing industry you need to go look at the new outdoor bill the government just passed and Pres. Trump signed into law. It protects the fishing industry from lead bans because of the hard ship it would put on companies that make fishing tackle. I can't remember the name of the bill but it was passed to protect the fishing industry and the small tackle companies. A ban on lead in the fishing industry would put most tackle manufactures out of business. Like I said, don't take my word for it go look up the outdoor bill just passed. Sometimes to really understand what is happening out there you need to get involved with your government reps. Thank you for your time and consideration. Can you post a link to this? All that is showing up is a bill the allows lead ammo and fishing equipment on federal lands or lands regulated by the FWS passed back in 2017. Unless you're fishing in inland waterways regulated by FWS, any lead ban would still be in effect. I'm guessing if those inland waters are used for waterfowl hunting, which is regulated by FWS, the ban is lifted. Kind of a grey area. As I see it, a summons for using lead in lead free waters is something I should be worried about. I'll stick to on toxic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RM3 Posted April 5, 2020 Report Share Posted April 5, 2020 Due to it's high melting temp, most tungsten is produced by one of two methods. the first, and most common method for panfish jigheads is the mixing of tungsten powder with epoxy and then molding said mixture. The second, most used for bass and up sized tackle is through sintering. this process mixes tungsten powder with a metal that melts at a more manageable temp, this mixture is then packed into a mold and heated under pressure binding the tungsten to the other metal. This is the reason there is no 100% tungsten fishing tackle. The process and materials is costly and the reason there is not a single tungsten weight or jig, at least in bass sizes, produced in the US. Which brings up another point, there are several companies selling product with a marketing campaign stating that they are a US based company. Their company may be but they import the product from China like everyone else. Don't fall for it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillG-MN Posted April 5, 2020 Report Share Posted April 5, 2020 There are indeed manufacturers of tungsten products in the US. I'm familiar with a company in my home town that has its own tungsten mine in Canada, and have invented interesting things such as tungsten tape for wheel balancing weights. Unfortunately, they don't make fishing weights. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RM3 Posted April 6, 2020 Report Share Posted April 6, 2020 10 hours ago, BillG-MN said: There are indeed manufacturers of tungsten products in the US. I'm familiar with a company in my home town that has its own tungsten mine in Canada, and have invented interesting things such as tungsten tape for wheel balancing weights. Unfortunately, they don't make fishing weights. It would be nice if some company could make tackle, I know some use the same process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
