Hook Tester Tool

[bassrecord]

I need a tool to test fish hooks. I want to put a single J hook in a hook tester tool, apply pressure until it malfunctions and record where it broke. I need to be able to make several tools to share with my friends so that identical fish hooks will fail at the same pressure on different Hook Tester Tools. Does anybody know of such a device?

For my purposes, fish hooks in any tester would fail three ways:

1. the eye breaks or stretches and lets the line slip away,

2. the hook shaft breaks or bends such that the point pulls out, and

3. the gap or bend straightens or breaks and the point separates.

I have given hw to make this tool some thought. A 18" torque wrench with 150 foot-pound capacity should be sufficient. The 3/4" drive torque wrench fits into a 13/16" socket which would turn a 1" axel with notches and a pawl to keep it from slipping when more torque is being applied. A 3/4" link chain would be fastened to the axel. At the end of the chain would be attached a strong "S" link with one normal end of the "S" link fits into the chain ands the other end is tapered and sharpened to a point. The pointed end fits into the eye of any hook and the hook point is hooked behind strong metal bar stock. After slack in the chain is taken up, the torque wrench is cranked until the hook fails.

Any comments would be appreciated. Can anybody make such a device?

John

[David Reid]

For a bit more info see Quality control on the Mustad site: http://www.mustad.no/abouthooks/q_control.php

[bassrecord]

That is a good non-specific description. Thanks for sharing. Mustad does not share their Mustad Bending Test kilograms data with the public. It would be interesting to see if all their High Carbon 110 steel fish hooks bent at the same kilogram weights .

Mustad says, "Hooks mainly consist of high carbon steel." Theirs do. But their competitiors sell a lot of stainless steel hooks. Mustad is still slow getting into this market. They are trying to sell high priced new stuff against their old style fsih hooks.

The Mustad 39965D hook they are testing looks like a circle hook which I never use. Their notion of testing "bend" is just one of three ways a fish hook can fail.

The other problem I have with Mustad is that their MBTest is a device to ensure that their automatic machine-made fish hooks fail consistently (within upper and lower control limits) when made at Mustad's lowest cost. Their cost reduction scemes are not my concern - I just want the strongest hook possible! No doubt all the other major hook manufacturers who use automatic machines use a similar control technique.

The only other way to make fish hooks is partially hand made. Companies that use this technique also must use quality control of a different type to make sure human errors don't let faulty hooks onto the market.

The marketing hype and BS about fish hooks makes me want to puke. Garbage such as micro barbs, chemically sharpened, colors, coatings, etc. are drivel - I just want strong, light and cheap! A fish hook testing tool will help us get what we want, I think.

John

[David Reid]

John, Didnt really look through your initial post that much and think about it or reflect on it. I just posted that in case it was of use to you. Mustad normally make pretty good hooks but it depends on where they come from. They are about one of the oldest hook manufacturers going and have made hooks in Norway since around 1870 offhand.Today they make hooks in a number of places and I imagine the quality varies. I know they manufacture in Singapore and also in the Phillipines. I imagine the lowest quality come out of the Phillipines and that is possibly the major source for a lot of American ones ???? The quality of their finished hooks not only depends on the initial material but on what quality of heat treatment plant they actually have in place and how they actually consistently heat treat the hooks they make.

To make something as you have suggested shouldnt be very difficult. It just requires a little initial thought. If you wanted to compare various hooks and see how good they are I would compare them against equivalent Owner hooks. By general common consensus they seem to be one of the best hooks on the market and just about all comments and reports I have ever seen on them have been totally positive with very very few negative comments or reports of failures. With regard to SS hooks some of the Chinese ones may be alright. Somewhere amongst my stuff I have a report of a particular brand that tested up quite well and seemed to be quite a reasonable hook.

[clamboni]

How about a small spool witha hand crank, some cable, and a high capacity spring scale. Mount the spool and cable on one end, the scale on the other. Attach the cable to the hook eye and the bend to the scale. Try to find a scale that has a marker that stays put when the weight is released. That way you can be farther from the hook when it breaks and goes flying and still read the scale accurately. One though thing though would be finding some kind of fastener that'll be thin enough to fit in the hook eye and also hold up to repeated stressing like you'll be putting on it. You only really have to build one, and just test a few of each hook on the same one, more consistant that way anyway.

You said you want a hook that's strong, light, and cheap. Tough combination to find. And how much money are you planning on spending on building this tester?? Might just be worth it to buy some Eagle Claws. They're a much better hook then they used to be and pretty cheap.

No matter how much money you spend on it, ANY hook will fail if you catch enough big fish on it.

[David Reid]

Clamboni, Stainless steel will eventually breakdown and rust. It is certainly biodegradable but just takes a lot longer. It really depends on what grade it is. Grade 304 normally has anywhere from 18 to 20% of Chrome, 8 to 12 of Nickel and no Molybdenum while 316 has 16 to 18% Chrome, 10 to 14% of Nickel and 2 to 3% of Molybdenum. It is the Molybdenum which gives it extra durability and makes it most suitable for marine use. I dont know what grade they use for SS hooks its probably something like 304H which has a higher carbon content. What differentiates hooks is the tempering process and control used more than anything.

Here is a reasonable article on hooks: http://www.sportfishingmag.com/article.jsp?ID=22367

The thing is to keep most hooks sharp. Its amazing how quickly they lose their extra edge if you dont look after them.

[bassrecord]

David, This is good information. I had not realized that Mustad hooks made in different places would have different quality. My guess is that their quality would be roughly the same for the identical hook.

You said, "If you wanted to compare various hooks and see how good they are I would compare them against equivalent Owner hooks. By general common consensus they seem to be one of the best hooks on the market and just about all comments and reports I have ever seen on them have been totally positive with very very few negative comments or reports of failures."

Yes Owner has a good reputation and Eagle Claw had bad reputation, but I want to test for myself. Let's say 30 Owners for a given model/size broke at 75 ft-pounds average and the equilivalent 30 Eagle Claw model/size broke on average at 74 foot-pounds, if Owner cost 3 times as much, I would go with Eagle Claw. But I'd be interested in the weakest hook out of the 30 sample too or some breaking all over the range. If they cost the same, and behaved the same, to me it would be a push.

I'd be interested in reading your SS report. To my thinking comparing SS hooks to high carbon steel hooks is almost like comparing apples to oranges, but there may be some overlap.

John

[Vodkaman]

I think a valid point would be, do you load the bend or the point. I am thinking that the point would be a more realistic measure of the hooks tendancy to straighten, but in actual practise, the load is taken by the bend.

As for the mechanical device, I am thinking of a water container, slowly filled. Easy to graduate with a marker pen, no moving parts and very cheap.

[bassrecord]

Clamboni said, "How about a small spool witha hand crank, some cable, and a high capacity spring scale. Mount the spool and cable on one end, the scale on the other. Attach the cable to the hook eye and the bend to the scale. Try to find a scale that has a marker that stays put when the weight is released. That way you can be farther from the hook when it breaks and goes flying and still read the scale accurately."

Interesting idea. But if a size 18 hook would break at say 10-15 ft-pounds and a size 6/0 hook broke at 120 foot pounds, it would be tough to find a spring with that scalability.

"One though thing though would be finding some kind of fastener that'll be thin enough to fit in the hook eye and also hold up to repeated stressing like you'll be putting on it."

Yes! this may be the weak link in the tester.

"You only really have to build one, and just test a few of each hook on the same one, more consistant that way anyway."

Yes but if several friends could replicate the tests and get the same results, then it should be easy to clearly see the "best" hook, right?

"You said you want a hook that's strong, light, and cheap. Tough combination to find."

Sad, but so true.

"And how much money are you planning on spending on building this tester??"

I already own the torque wrench and 13/16" driver which cost about $180. I'm guessing a machine shop will make the rest for about the same $200.

"Might just be worth it to buy some Eagle Claws. They're a much better hook then they used to be and pretty cheap."

I'm testing the L-200 now and they are very light weight wire for Big 5-6 pound and up bass. On Big bass the gristle on the inside of the mouth and lip solidifies and light weight wire like bass "Stinger" hooks bounce off letting her get away too often. I never will use a stinger hook for that reason. I'd like to test some light wire weight SS hooks against the L-200 and see which is the best. I'mk sure the Tiemco 511S would defeat the L-200, but they are discontinued .

"No matter how much money you spend on it, ANY hook will fail if you catch enough big fish on it"

Now that is the problem I want to have

John

[David Reid]

John, I have seen the odd comment on SS hooks breaking but I think that is because the smelting process isnt that good, the smelting process isnt long enough (to get steel to greater purity they bring the material up to a certain temperature and hold it there. The longer it is held at that temp the more impurities are burnt out and the better the steel resulting. Obviously it costs money to hold it at an elevated temp so sometimes they short circuit the time and the quality isnt quite as good) or the drawing process isnt that good but mostly it comes back to the tempering process. This tends to vary a bit and again it comes back to time. There is certainly some very good SS hooks out there but most of the time you dont see them.

With the smelting process better understood today and good steel analysis equipment fairly readily available reasonable quality steel and SS is reasonably easy to produce. Unfortunately though the dollar tends to drive everything.

I will have a look for that report again at some stage but have had a look for it in the last couple of months and didnt find it. I do remember filing it but for once I dont seem to have been very logical in my filing because it is certainly not where I thought it would be.

I am interested in finding out a bit more about these Matzuo hooks myself. Has anyone got any really positive or negative comments about them?

I just read Vodkamans comment and believe he makes a very valid point re the loading on the point or the bend. A tester as you have described John should be fairly easy to put together but it certainly needs a little thought as to exactly where and how you hold the hook at either of these points. A torque wrench will certainly give you a fairly repeatable result as long as you set the thing right each time and then release the spring pressure and setting every time you put it away.

[bassrecord]

Vodkaman, on the hooks I'd be testing, I kinda agree that the point might bend first. But with guys testing worm hooks or other hooks with all the wierd kinks and bends they have, maybe their shank would bend first.

Mustad only tests the load on the bend, it looks like. Unless I'm missing something, I want to test the load on the point, the bend, the shank and the eye - whatever is the weakest part.

I think your water idea is ingenius! You would use gravity to bend the hook. But I cannot visualize the universal socket or holder your hook point would fit into.

On mine, I would also use gravity but to hold the hook point down into a "V" slot with the hook bend resting on the top of the slot so each same size hook would be tested at the same identical point in the slot.

But water is cheap

John

[Vodkaman]

I know it depends on the hook size, but what kind of load range are we looking at. Given a range of hook sizes used by all. This will give me something to work on this weekend. Stuck in my apartment with all my tools and no materials, even have a test pool!

This is a useful project, if it can be designed for testing other aspects of the lure. For example, pull out loads for hangar wires in diferent materials, woods etc. The effect of opening the hangar hole, better or worse. A lot of questions could be answered quickly with the right rig, no guessing involved, just hard facts.

[bassrecord]

David, still more good info. Thank you.

Forging adds about 30% strength, so they say. What I don't understand is, if forging lets the manufacturers get by with lighter wire, which = less cost, then why doesn't everyone forge their hooks? My guess is that if their machine is set up for non-forging, they just won't pay the money to add forging since they won't be able to sell their hooks for more money to pay for the upgrade.

Today the big hook boys have automatic machinery and they require minimum orders of 100,000 pieces per size and model or they won't even set up and make a hook run. My guess is they buy spooled wire and draw it to fit the specs of their machines. One such supplier of fish hook wire is Mount Joy:

http://www.mjwire.com/mjw_fishhook.html

Sorry, I'm not familiar with Matzuo hooks but I'm testing Rodney Long's Standout hooks and am just itching to put them into the tester.

[bassrecord]

Vodkaman I don't know what load ranges we would have. My torque wrench goes up to 200 foot-pounds, I think. That should dismantle just about any type lure!

I never thought about other type testing! A tool would let us test adhesives also!

[bassrecord]

David, I wanted to comment on the Sportfishing fish hook article you posted.

{Jeff Pierce, sales coordinator for Mustad USA. "We start with steel wire about as big around as your pinky, then use our special machinery and expertise to draw it down to all the different diameters required to make anything from a tuna hook to a size-28 dry-fly hook."

Machines draw the wire to a specific diameter, cut and bend it into shape, then form the hook point. Pierce explains that, except for its stainless-steel models, "Mustad uses basically the same type of high-carbon steel when shaping all the different hooks because from that point on we can customize the products for any particular purpose." }

I don't know if I believe this nonsense. My guess is that that the specs for hook wire size 18 will draw differently than for a hook size 5/0. But I really don't care if my fish hook tester shows which hook is the best.

{Daiichi's saltwater products manager, TJ Stallings, explains why his company incorporates 80-carbon steel in its hooks: "High-carbon steel allows us to make hooks from smaller-diameter wire without sacrificing strength - and tests show diameter represents the single most important factor in hook penetration." }

I agree with his first part but I certainly haven't seen any evidence that small penetrates "better" than big. I know that "sharp" definitely penetrates better than "dull". My guess is that "small" points may penetrate better on some species or size of fish and "big" points may penetrate better on other sizes and species. Micro barb is just sales crap IMHO.

His comments on tempering and forging are right on IMHO and get to the heart of hook manufacture.

Personally I think a lot of money is wasted by hook makers when sharpening their points. I carry a diamond file out on the water and like to touch up the points to keep them as sharp as possible. Long ago I learned the hard way not to trust hook makers' points would stay sharp.

When it comes to hook finish, my goal is that the hook does not rust under proper care although I do like red hooks

{Mustad's Pierce feels saltwater {and freshwater too, IMHO} anglers sometimes exaggerate the importance of hook style when the crucial factor actually lies in hook strength. "A standard-wire hook won't do the job if you expect to be wrestling 20-pound black drum away from dock pilings," he says. "You're better off using double- or triple-strength hooks, no matter what the style." }

Ta Da! Agreed! So, Mr. Pierce, how do we determine which hooks are double or triple strength without a testing tool? And no, we won't trust you to tell us which one to buy!

[David Reid]

John, Its always difficult separating the wheat from the chaff when you are reading what manufacturers put out and what they say at times and when it comes to advertising a lot of it is put together by advertising staff who often like to use impressive words but if you actually read what they are saying and analyse it most of it is utter crap and often meaningless. Its absolutely amazing what we accept and believe at times until we analyse the claims and I am as bad as the next man on face value. I have a graphic artist as a friend who used to be the national advertising manager for a big company here in its growth and very successful phase before it got too big and was snapped up by big money and then dismembered and sold off and he has taught me a thing or two over the years with the result I do stop at times and analyse what I read with the further result that I realise that there are some real intellectual f--kwits both among the advertising people and the public at large. I suppose and imagine the hook manufacturers are just as guilty of it as anyone else.

Its amazing how quick each of us learns when we have had a hook straighten out and we lose a good fish as a result but I am not so sure we learn as fast when a hook breaks. Often we perpetrate the myth of how good that manufacturers hooks are by exaggerating how big the fish was to our friends (as we after all have the evidence of the broken hook) rather than holding the hook manufacturer to account.

It makes me wonder what actual National and Intl Standards there are. ??? Are there any or does each manufacturer set their own. The only thing I am aware of is size where you have from 32 to 1 and from 1/0 to 19/0 and I think even these vary dont they?

Just Googled and turned up the following on SS Hooks: http://www.emperortackle.com/about_us.php

and this Hook comparison chart which should be of interest to any fly tiers and trout fishermen on the group: http://globalflyfisher.com/staff/scharabun/hookchart/

and heres another LBF put out: http://www.landbigfish.com/flyfishing/hookcharts.cfm

On the basis of what has been discussed and points made by the various people here it certainly sounds like a hook tester would certainly be a good idea to make one. Holding some of these manufacturers to account and testing some others might turn up some interesting results. I remember when this soft plastics concept came out here which unlike the States is not that long back and the first ones that seemed to be available and people were trying were the Pogys a lot of the cheap ones of which came from China. Well it didnt take most fishermen long to discover they were crap and it was the cheap hooks that let them down almost everytime with most of them straightening out when you got a decent fish on and a few snapping. Its why the first ones I bought were Berkley which immediately upon inspection were a step up and I didnt mind paying the extra. Its why Berkley took off I believe although a lot of us also found their other claims were overstated. They have certainly got better and continue to improve. Maybe they are not dumping so much crap on us now. Tends to prove the old adage: First catch the fisherman and get them sold on the concept and they will do your advertising for you.

With regard to the minimum order of 100,000 again that will be to do with the tempering process and setup time.

Re Rodney Longs Standout hooks I would be most interested in anything you discover and test results you come out with. The concept is certainly good. I would be buying them myself and using them in marine fishing if he made 3/0 4/0 5/0 and 6/0s. They may need a little alteration but I still think they would work at those sizes. I have looked at the concept and believe I could actually improve upon it slightly.

"Personally I think a lot of money is wasted by hook makers when sharpening their points. I carry a diamond file out on the water and like to touch up the points to keep them as sharp as possible. Long ago I learned the hard way not to trust hook makers' points would stay sharp."

You have certainly got it spot on there. A sharp point will gain you more fish give you more penetration and hookset than a dull one and is a far better cheap investment than a lot of high priced fishing gear which often dosnt improve your fishing and the results all that much. A good diamond fish hook file and knowing how to use it properly is worth its weight in gold. I believe there is a good US brand called Jewel which comes in its own clip on twist and turn tube cover which I have never been able to source. There are a few people John who might consider you a bit of a poncer and that a diamond file is a bit overkill but take it from me its a pleasure to meet someone who uses his intelligence to get round some of the problems caused by hook manufacture and hook quality. Eg Gammys are certainly a good hook and come with razor sharp points but they dont hold it and like others tend to lose it. Personally I have never understood why fishing writers and magazines dont emphasise this aspect more at times.

[David Reid]

Here is a bit more info on SSs: http://www.steelforge.com/ferrous/stainlesssteel.htm Apparently they use the 400 series for SS hooks. Read under Ferritic and also under Martensitic. Also note where they say: "the use of argon-oxygen decarburization and vacuum-induction melting has produced several new ferritic grades including 18Cr-2Mo, 26Cr-1Mo, 29Cr-4Mo, and 29Cr-4Mo-2Ni." (= thermal lances where it says argon-oxygen). it is interesting where they say: "In the annealed condition, strength of these grades is approximately 50% higher than that of carbon steels." I cant comment on 400 series as my experience has mostly been with 304 and 316 and a very little 320 and none with 400 but I imagine it would serve the purpose admirably.

[clamboni]

It's definitely a very interseting thread and concept, but I think you're putting way too much time and effort into it. Just find a hook you like and can afford. I can honestly say that I have NEVER straightened out a regular strength mustad bass fishing, and that's all I use. Of course I'm fishing in NJ and a 7 lber is fairly rare, but plenty of 4's and 5's. And by the time they get dull, they usually get broken off anyway unless I get hung in some rocks and get it back, and no hook is giong to hold a point very well in rocks.

As far as penetration, a light wire hook will penetrate better, but you also have to look at the situation and the fish you're after. Like was posted before, you're not gonna get 20 lb drum away from pilings without a heavy gauge hook. Think about it. Try pushing a thumbtack and a 8d nail into something. Anything. The tack is gonna penetrate better. Even if the tack is dulled and the nail sharpened.

[bassrecord]

David, very, very interesting posts! It's people like you who take the time to explain and post links that make this forum worth the time!

The hook charts you referenced are well known and probably among the most complete available today. However hook comparison chart problems are legion. A's fine wire may be the same size as B's standard, C's gape is not equal to D's gape same size - same bend type, E's 3XL is not equal to F's 3XL, and the variances go on and on. SS hook comparisons are rare as well as many speciality hooks such as popper hooks (my interest). Equivalencies are often in the mind of the chart maker. And of course nobody compares breaking strength .

Sadly I loose very few Big fish due to hook bending. Truth is I bend too many when they are hung up . In recent years I lose more hooks by havingf them break in the vice or hit rocks or docks or wook matter due to sloppy casts. I really feel stupid when a good solid strike keeps on going because I'm fishing with a pointless hook!

SS and High Carbon steel grades quickly get over my head. I guess my approach would be to test different hooks against each other and then send out those with the highest breaking test out to a materials testing lab and find out what steel grades they were.

Today lure body material has really shrunk in cubic weight. This allows us to use heavier metal in our hooks without sacrificing performance. A lighter and stronger SS pushes the performance curve further in our favor and potentially lets us radically improve the action of our lures.

[bassrecord]

Clamboni said,

"It's definitely a very interseting thread and concept, but I think you're putting way too much time and effort into it. Just find a hook you like and can afford."

Sorry I was not clear on why I wanted to test hooks. Let's say for the same maker and model, I can find a size 2/0 that weighs less than their size 2 and is stronger than the 2 I have been using, then I can redesign my lure using their 2/0, 1/0 or size 1 and catch more Big bass. Of course many more factors and trade-offs that come into play so I would not automatically upsize without extensive testing. I hope you see that if I had some knowledge of hook strength among the sizes it would give me more flexibility in chosing the "best" fit for the specific lure I'm making.

"I can honestly say that I have NEVER straightened out a regular strength mustad bass fishing, and that's all I use. Of course I'm fishing in NJ and a 7 lber is fairly rare, but plenty of 4's and 5's."

We do a different type of fishing. I only target 5-6 pound LM bass and bigger and only on topwater. I target 20-24 pounds breaking strength and set line, drag, hook, etc at that maximum. I would never use 50 pound line for example. It's my firm conviction that overlining, over weighting and excessive weight has cost me lots of Big bass and I want reduce that by optimizing the lure.

"As far as penetration, a light wire hook will penetrate better, but you also have to look at the situation and the fish you're after. Like was posted before, you're not gonna get 20 lb drum away from pilings without a heavy gauge hook."

I agree that a 15 pound LM bass has got to be horsed away from an underwater brush pile like a 20 pound drum away from pilings. But the difference is getting them on in the first place. I submit that it is infinitely more difficult getting on a 17 year old 15 pound bass that may have been caught and released 1500 times or more in her life than a 5 year old drum that is caught the first time underwater on cut bait. Big bass don't get big by being stupid and I want to trick them anyway I legally can.

"Think about it. Try pushing a thumbtack and a 8d nail into something. Anything. The tack is gonna penetrate better. Even if the tack is dulled and the nail sharpened."

I'm not pushing a thumbtack or a 8 penny nail into anything. I'm trying to push a scalpel sharp point into something that may be as strong as some metals. The teeth on a 14 pound bass are 1/8" long! No hook point will hold there for long. It won't stick in the mandible or behind the top lip and many more places where the gristle is so blamed tough. My fervent hope is that when she inhales my lure, my hook's point will find a softer place to lodge and you can bet then I don't want some little cheesy point responsible for penetrating and then holding my next big bass! If she tail-walks and tries to toss my lure in my face, I want to have the strongest hook holding her that I could get her to take in the first place.

[smirkplug]

Ive Seen A Line / Knot Testing Machine At A Trade Show, That You Could Use For Hooks, Izorline Had It. If You Contact Them I Bet They Would Send You A Photo Or Schematic Of It. Be Very Careful So You Don't Fling A Hook At Yourself. Also For Lures You May Want To Check The Strength Of Splitrings You Use As They Usually Fail Prior To The Hook. Please Post Your Findings And Good Luck.

[bassrecord]

smirkplug said, "Ive Seen A Line / Knot Testing Machine At A Trade Show, That You Could Use For Hooks, Izorline Had It."

Yep, I emailed them and they sent the following:

"Our line testor is made by Chatillion. It costs about $10,000. Izorlline"

Google turned up: http://www.chatillon.com/index.html

Thanks for your info!

John

[Vodkaman]

As this testing rig is only going to have limited use, I have kept the design as simple and cheap as possible. The design is flexible and easily adapted to other applications. I think the diagrams are self explanatory; there are no critical dimensions so I will let them tell the story.

The only part requiring some explanation is the ‘metal plate’. Inside the upper hole is a small 1mm dia hole in which the hook point locates. In order to drill this hole, the plate may have to be bent over. This is not a problem and the plate can be flattened again after drilling. To enable the locating hole to be drilled means that the plate material will probably have to be at least 1.5mm thick, but aluminium plate will be plenty strong enough for the purpose. Alternatively, a thinner material can be hammered over to make a hook on which to locate the hook point. The original design was to enable both point and bend testing with the same plate.

As mentioned earlier, SAFETY GLASSES.

I have given a lot of thought as to what part of the hook should be tested, the point or the bend. In both cases, it is the resistance to bending that is being tested. In my most humble opinion I feel that the most useful and consistent method would be to test the point. As another contributor pointed out that the bend shape can vary dramatically from a round bend to a sharp bend under the point. Under testing, the round bend would register a much better performance given all other properties equal. This is because the load would be closer to the hook shank. It’s a lever thing (without getting too anal). The one constant thing for a given sized hook is the shaft to point distance.

Additionally, if the bend was tested, I feel that determining the point of failure consistently from hook to hook could be a problem due to the barb snagging on the plate. True, the barb could be crimped, but this invasive operation could affect the result and the snag issue will not have completely been removed. In reality, the same properties are tested, the results of a round bend test will be double the point test, as the shank/point distance is double the shank/bend distance (there I go again).

The point test failure point should be fairly consistent and is the moment that the hook slips out of the locating hole. Each treble gives three opportunities to verify the results, if they differ wildly then we will have to re-think the whole test method. I do have more ideas for test rigs should this be the case.

The water load can either be marked by the litre, as one litre = 1Kg. or simply borrow the wife’s bathroom scales, I know you guys like your lbs n’ ozzes (1Kg = 2.2Lb). The actual load value is really of little consequence as we are only performing comparative tests between different types of hook. Results within 5% – 10% of each other should not be considered bad results if we are to avoid law suits, anything higher than this deserves mention.

I wish that I could build it for you but unfortunately I am snookered at the moment as regarding a workshop. Good luck and report back.

[Vodkaman]

First of all I would like to congratulate all those members who have contributed to this fascinating post. Not a subject that I would normally have been attracted to, but the depth of knowledge and research shared has really grabbed my attention to the extent that I have invested more hours in thinking time and actual work than I care to admit, as I suspect have the other contributors. I am well and truly hooked, pardon the pun. For anyone searching for information on hooks or testing in general, this post will be a ‘must read’ in future.

Anyone who delves into any subject to the nth degree could be accused of being anal. But just by being an active member of this very specialized club could all be accused of the same crime. This is what we do. Anything that one would wish to know about lure design etc can be found within these pages. If it is not written, ask the question and the information will be forthcoming by the bucket load.

I take umbrage at being accused of wasting my time, not upset, just mildly irritated. This is not the first post that I have been involved with were someone feels the need to belittle the efforts of like minded TUists. Clamboni, I am surprised at your comment as all your previous posts have been very interesting and instructive, always worth reading. Maybe I am just being a bit touchy having just spent about twenty hours thinking about the subject and doing a little drawing. Respect anyway.

[David Reid]

Vodkaman, Good effort I will look at it later and add my 2c worth. Re Safety Glasses Excellent Advice. Like they say Hindsight is Perfect. You have obviously been a parent or are a parent. Havnt time to read it at present but will get to it. John and others when you have found some really good hooks send them down to me for infield testing. Our Kingfish are notorious for straightening hooks out and breaking them as well and grow to over 100 lbs here where we hold most of the world records for them. In the States you have even changed the name and call them Yellowtail so you can have your own records. On the West Coast and California generally they are lucky to reach 60 lbs generally although you do get them at 80 lb. Its probably all those darn Japanese and darn Hawaians catching all the big ones I suppose. (sorry folks I am not being racist just commenting on people that catch fish which have my name on them but someone else pulls out of the water). Unfortunately that happens when you have large populations. Such is life unfortunately. These are certainly the ultimate testing machine and even the undersized rats give some hooks a hammering. When you hook one of these and if they dont bust you off on foul or piles or whatever you often have a 20 minute and sometimes over half an hour battle to ensure you land it. I am sure you have similar fish in the States. From that point of view John you are on the right track and anything that helps an angler land a prize fish is possibly a good thing (although that means I can no longer catch that fish). Most of the well known brand names of hooks such as Mustad, Owner, VMC, Gammakatzu etc and even Eagle Claw who have upped their act do a good job and put out reasonable hooks but anything that can encourage them to improve their act put out better more reliable hooks and keep them honest is a good thing in my opinion.