lipless swimbait, but...

[Vodkaman]

Pikeman.

You are right about the obsession, it's really annoying at times. I used to play both darts and pool, now I only play pool as there are no vortices to think about.

You covered the tail moving from side to side in one sweeping statement. You have to ask 'what makes the tail move from side to side?'. This is the key question. You mention the pressure, if the pressure was constant, why should the tail wag?

[clamboni]

Noone ever said the pressure was constant. When I posted, I mentioned that I didn't think vortices applied much to a walking/gliding bait. I do think though, that they almost have to have something to do with tail movement on a lipless swimming bait, similar to a crank but with different effects on the bait. LOL Now figure out how they apply to a lipless swimbait so we can make better ones.

When I said that your theory does apply to everything by the way, what I meant to say exactly was that vortices may be present in a walking bait, but they aren't the forces at work that cause the action. So the theory works, as in the bait movement causes a vortex, but the vortex that is caused isn't the reason that the bait walks.

Pikeman, the pressure differences on each side of the bait are caused by the vortices. I don't think that's the reason they walk. I think the reason they walk is that when you pull on the line, you cause the bait to both turn and move forward. Momentum does the rest.

[Vodkaman]

Clamboni. The momentum idea is entirely reasonable. It would tie in with the tail weight, adding momentum to carry it past neutral and zag the other way.

I still have not had a chance to view the posted video's, I am presuming the motion under constant retrieval is a slow 'S' action.

[pikeman]

Clamboni, the question remains why the bait turns when you pull on the line, presuming that the bait is in line it will still turn, I was assuming that when the bait moves forward , the water dislocated by the head flows on the rest of the body putting pressure on it, maybe this pressure is created by Vodkaman's vortices the tail being lighter will become unstable. The problem is controlling this instability for obtaining different types of action, it is a matter of shapes and weight, I think Vodkaman remained without lip material and now is studying gliders as a substitute for cranks:p:twisted:

My first glider : http://www.rapitori.ro/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=2930 it was ok, but it worked only on fast retrieve or trolling (the one in the right, the left lure is a popper frog)

[Vodkaman]

Above is a link to another video clip sent to me by Clemmy (thank's Clemmy). It is another visual explanation of vortex shedding. I have posted it because it demonstrates that the effect is present without swirls of vortices being present.

Pikemans point about, the lure still turns, even when it starts in line (zero angle). In this instance only vortex shedding could start the side movement. As many members have stated the importance of the rear portion of the ballast, I must conclude that the walk the dog action must be the result of a combination of effects as both the vortex theory and the momentum theory are working in the same direction.

Reading back to the numbered points made by Riverman (page 2), points 2, 4 & 5 all basically refer to the same feature, there must be significant width at the front. This is required to forcefully part the water and initiate the vortex shedding.

Point 1 increases the momentum for the walk the dog and point 6 would resist movement like trying to push a flat plate through the water. These two points would appear to contradict each other, but the rear mass creates momentum, once created, it takes force to stop it. A bit like pushing a truck, once it is moving it only takes a fraction of the energy to keep it moving. A fat rear end would provide that resistive force and dampen the action. I have always found that a fat rear end dampens my action!

Point 3 is interesting. Vortices have a minimum speed of about 0.5 meters per second. Any slower than this and laminar flow occurs and the lure travels in a straight line. A longer lure would be heavier than a shorter lure, thus it has more forward momentum and would thus glide further.

[Tigger]

The swim baits are interesting beasts. I think the key other than proper weighting ( up / down) is the type of pivot that is used. I believe that a very free swinging pivot makes the job alot easier.

I keep thinking to try one with a thru cable and bead system but something tells me that it would be to rigid. Thus a stiffer action similiar to a glider.

Many people have used door hinges and the standard interlocking screw eyes. They seem to work the best. Even an interlocking wood joint and a thru nail. It worked great also.

I keep thinking that there is a way to tighten the links between segments for a more realistic look but that is a hard nut to crack with the wood body's

The mystery of the swim bait lives on! LOL

Jed your bait has really nice action!

[jrhopkins]

have been using a hinge for my jointed baits that works very well, but i'm expiermenting with a new multi-jointed bait with string epoxied through the body segments, very flexible and a lot faster to install than a bunch of metal hinges. oh, before you all jump on me about material fatigue, it's Kevlar string, should hold up pretty good.

[Vodkaman]

JR, did you find any problem with the epoxy travelling along the string, a bit like capillary action. I found that it soaked along the thread a couple of millimeters. Not a big deal, I just needed to compensate the application.

I made some five segment baits hinged with a nylon thread. I cut a knotch in the top and bottom of each segment and epoxied the thread in the knotch. I held the thread in place by superglue prior to epoxy.

Although successful, I decided that it was too time consuming and fiddly and moved on to one piece lures.

[jrhopkins]

no problem with capillary action. the line channel is through each section in line with the other sections. i'm making the lure from PVC so no problem with having to waterproof anything. i used just a spot of epoxy in the center of each section then epoxied the sections together. just tank tested the protype and runs with the head stable and the tail wags. its a floater and runs just a few inches under the water. think i'm on the right track, will see after the finish is on it. will let you know.

[Snax]

Wow, some GREAT reading in this thread guys! I've also made a number of jointed lipless swimbaits and have noticed that if my tails are warped (I make them from wood) even a little, it causes the bait to come in like a stick.

Mine are only jointed once in the middle then have a wooden tail attached with a screw eye and split ring.

I'm curious as to how best epoxy wooden swimbaits? I put all my baits on a rotating rack to ensure no runs in the epoxy. Problem is that it gets into the joints and is a pain to remove. How do you folks epoxy this type of bait?

[bdhaeh]

I don't know how well it is going to work, but I am going to use twisted stainless eyebolts and anchor one side with epoxy permanently, the other side with a little woodglue, paint, then take the bait apart to epoxy so that I can get good coverage without gakking up the joints. I'll let ya know how it goes.